Zeroing in on Bessler's wheel

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hi Robinhood, Hi Robinhood46,
First off, I don't know every thing that Georg tried to do or what others may have done. If I remember right he had ONE drum mounted, centered, on the axle of the wheel. With a roller or rollers inside of it. Only one drum on the center line, right? That's the giant problem! All the force of the roller will be straight down on a radius. Always bottom heavy and, would never turn no matter what you might try.

However, with TWO drums and TWO rollers mounted at some distance from the center line, the down force now, of the rollers, is on a tangent. Do you see the difference? Normally; and this is the most amazing part of it, they remain perfectly balanced! When I first discovered this, I couldn't believe it!

Simply by moving the rollers to one side or the other the wheel will turn in that direction. I've done this, if I just touch the rollers the wheel will start to turn. The problem was, how to find a good way to move them / keep them to one side or the other. Which I have already explained. I hope this helps---------------Sam

[SHADOW]

En pièce jointe la Sim pour les détenteurs d'Algodoo.

Attached the Sim for Algodoo holders.

[Robinhood46]

Thanks for sharing the sim Shadow.
Sam,
If all the arms are fixed together, i don't see where it differs from one big octagon.
It would be one big hexagon, if you put something between the weights to join them.
I was under the impression you were trying to do something, working in pairs, where each pair of weights was independent to the others. That was the only advantage that i could see, to Georg's octagon.
If they are all fixed together, it doesn't matter how they are fixed together, their overall COG is central to all the weights. You are trying to shift the sum of all the weights laterally.

Maybe there is something i am not grasping. Are what you refer to as "the rollers" the yellow weights with which you hope to turn the wheel? I think it is clear they are, but i want to be sure.
I can't see the difference between trying to shift a six sided cross with weights on each end, laterally, and shift an octagon of the same total mass, as the six weights on a cross, laterally. To me they both have the same problem of not being able to shift them over with the energy gained by them being shifted over.
I hope i have got something wrong.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Robinhood,
It's not one big octagon. There are SIX small rings or drums at a radius, NOT one big one on the center line. The cross-bars aren't bolted together in the center, each one has a ball or roller bearing. These bearings run on the shaft used to shift them to one side or the other. The pairs are independent to each other. But, all can be shifted at the same time.

Yes the yellow round things are the rollers. Also, a cross-bar can be vertical and still cause the wheel to rotate, if it is pushed sideways. They are independent of the phase or position. All of this I have demonstrated. Only the method for shifting them hasn't ben tried yet.

Another difference has occurred to me, Greog was trying to get the hamster cage to rotate. In this situation the rings don't rotate. It's the wheel that turns.

What else. Yes you are right, all the weights shift laterally. Keeping the wheel continuously OOB-------
Sam

[Robinhood46]

Have you run the simulation, or seen a video of it Sam?

[Sam Peppiatt]

Robinhood, No

Oh! the shifting energy. A good point. Well now with the shaft that does the shifting, on solid ground, not mounted to the wheel, not rotating with it, you can use most any thing to do that with and it could be held in some way. No reoccurring energy required-------------Sam

[Robinhood46]

If Shadow is OK with it, i can post a video on Youtube so you can see it, if you would like to see it in motion.
I'm seeing three crossbars fixed together solidly, that all move as one.
Am i missing an independent movement that is so small i can't see it? Either because it's too small, or i need stronger glasses because i'm as blind as a bat.

[Sam Peppiatt]

They aren't fixed together but, at the same time they would all move together. In the real world there could be small difference in the machining of the parts. Do you know what I mean? They have to have a little freedom of movement. They can not be bolted solidly together, at least I don't think so-----------Sam

Sure, I would love to see it!

[Robinhood46]

What you are saying is making sense Sam.
I can't see that on the simulation. They appear solidly fixed to me, which is why i made the remarks about the similarities with Georg's work.
Maybe Shadow can shed some light on the matter.
I don't know why the blue circle, behind the three crossbars, isn't centralised on the steel disc. Is it intentional, because it creates an off centre mass, for the weights and crossbars, which are otherwise balanced?

[Sam Peppiatt]

Oh Hi Robin,
It is kind of hard to see. I like the drawing on SHADOW's site a bit better. The throw of the crank shaft is quite short. You have to look really close to see it. On his thread it is straight down, keeping all rollers centered so the wheel would be stopped.

It's shaft,(the crank), rotates on the center line, with the 'throw' engaged with the center of the cross-bars. The idea then is, if it were to rotate a little either way the wheel would start to turn.

Do you see how it works, Robin? It's an off center pin. Yes it is intentional. The pin is offset. When it rotates or moves to one side, it causes the rollers to shift in that direction and, they make the wheel turn-----------------Sam

The cross-bars are always down. It's like the wheel rotates under them. The center of them is always below the center of the wheel, therefor the pin that does the shifting, has to be offset as well.

[Robinhood46]

Sam,
I can see that the whole block (3 crossbars and 6 rollers) moves as one, when it is pushed by the mechanism with the pendulum.
My point is that they all shift together as one, not that they don't shift.
I think the best thing is to wait for Shadow to make things clearer. Or at least i hope he will.
If he gives the go ahead, I'll make a video tomorrow so you can see what i mean, if it is different to what you think.
Maybe he will explain what i am not seeing.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Robin,
You are right they all do move together. They are supposed to, so that all rollers will aid in turning the wheel at the same time--------------Sam

All of them at the same time will provide torque to the wheel no matter what position they are in. As long as they shift to one side or the other.

[Fletcher]

Robin,
You are right they all do move together. They are supposed to, so that all rollers will aid in turning the wheel at the same time

All of them at the same time will provide torque to the wheel no matter what position they are in. As long as they shift to one side or the other.

You are right Sam .. there are various ways to keep the Center of Rotation ( CoR ) to one side or the other if that is all it takes to have a constant torque and rotation, as per your hypothesis you are testing ..

For example you could, as Shadow has shown, use a pendulum attached to a fixed point and crank to physically displace it by leverage - you could also just attach a horizontal spring to pull it to one side which is fixed at one end to a rigid structure independent of the wheel ( e.g. the frame stand ) - or something incredibly simple such as a string to replace the spring above with a weight attached near its center position to also constantly pull the CoR across ..

A few experiments, and with Shadow's help, you should be able to constantly shift the CoR and find your answers - good luck ..

[Sam Peppiatt]

Fletcher,
You are right. it could be done in various ways. The only thing that I might add is 'it' should move in the same arc as the outer rim of the rings or, congruent to that arc, to prevent any unwanted side loading of the drums.

I finished the parts for the crank. I'll try it in the morning. And thanks! I'll will need all the luck I can get ----------------Sam

[Sam Peppiatt]

Hooked up the crank,
Not working, best I can tell. Not working at all----------------Sam

I fight with it tomorrow.