Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[Roxaway59]

I am posting this simulation because I believe that it is related to what Sam and Shadow have been doing recently.

I thought I had already posted a WM2D similar to this but I could be mistaken about that.

Anyway I have built similar ones to this in WM2D in the past and if I remember correctly they do work a little on low accuracy. I will check them out again at some point.

I still have my hands full looking for a car I can afford. By the time I have whittled away all the ones I cant afford on the web I’m usually looking at something that looks like a wheel barrow with a steering wheel attached.

Ok here’s my take on what is happening here even if this only works in Agodoos imagination.

I have some bearing resistance shown in green at the centre of the wheel and the simulation accuracy is set to 2400.

Run the simulation then turn the motor off and the wheel will begin to lose speed.

Reset then take the motor speed to 20 rpm and do it again.

Now you will see that it is picking up speed.

Reset it then put the air resistance on which is set at 0.3 and run the wheel at 20 rpm turning the motor off once again.

You will see that it once again begins to lose speed.

Reset it and take the speed up to 30 rpm with the air resistance still on.

Run it once again and turn the motor off.

Now you will see that it is picking up speed.

So what appears to be happening in Algodoo is there is a positive feedback loop that is making the wheel turn and the faster the wheel goes the stronger it gets.

Although it looks like the wheel should be continually overbalancing because of the layout in fact it is the positive feedback oscillations that are overbalancing it.

That’s my take on it so far.

When I get time I will check out WM2D once again.

Graham

[Robinhood46]

When i run it,with the speed increased to 14 rpm it rapidly slows down when i turn the motor off, and then runs in reverse with the angular velocity hovering between 0.55 and 0.58 rad/s.
It appears to want to do it for ever, because 0.56 and 0.57, and predominant with occasional hitting 0.55 and occasionally hitting 0.58. and there doesn't appear to be a tendency in either direction.

[Robinhood46]

I have to retract my last comment, because i am a bloody idiot.
I think i didn't go back far enough and cancel the motor i put on the green circle's axle.
Saying that, i now have everything back as downloaded and sometimes it accelerates, sometimes it slows down and sometimes it hovers at a specific velocity, with about 0.04 de variation, as seen before, so maybe i'm not as much of an idiot as i thought i was, although it is probable.

What i like about this is that each crossbar has it's own pendulum, which do not interact with each other.

[Roxaway59]

Yes the only connection the mechanisms have is their attachment to the wheel itself.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

The only reason I didn't put more of them on is because its a bit difficult getting them set up.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

I stated this with the simulation.

Although it looks like the wheel should be continually overbalancing because of the layout in fact it is the positive feedback oscillations that are overbalancing it.

There are 2 questions that really need to be answered.

1) Is this effect real?
2) If so can the effect be amplified?

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Here is the same simulation as before but instead of having the additional pendulums keeping the double pendulums upright the double pendulums are allowed to hang free and I have just increased the weight of the rollers on them and that is all.

Run the simulation and then turn off the motor and you will see it lose speed.

If you reset then increase the speed to about 30 rpm then turn off the motor it starts to increase speed just as it did in the previous simulation.

One of the first simulations I showed on my thread was based on something similar to this.

Can I be certain that there is nothing here of value?

No I can’t and I’ve always had the nagging doubt about what I am looking at.

Graham

[Fletcher]

Load up the WM2D version and I'll take a look in to it ..

Since you use both programs you should be able to make twins in each program and compare against each other to get a better "feel" for the viability of the principle potential you are investigating ..

[Roxaway59]

Description - Multiple pendulums creating positive feedback.

Over unity in Algodoo - Yes

Over unity in WM2D - Yes

Size - 1m

Maintains a steady rpm - maybe

Contains springs – Not yet

Makes a tapping noise - No

Miscellaneous – Based on a simplified version of the recent posted simulation.

Hi Fletcher I decided to do this latest one first because in my opinion this is starting to look interesting.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

There are a few things that strike me about this Fletcher so I wanted to mention some of them.

We have talked many times about resonance, oscillations and positive feedback loops. You have mentioned something about negating the back torque.

It seems to me that this has the possibility of all those things.

Also we have talked about the possibility of the simulations giving an indication of the right approach. This could be that indication.

Its unusual in my opinion for both WM2D and Algodoo to agree on anything.

I first got some positive results in WM2D and I then moved over to Algodoo.

At first I couldn’t get Algodoo to work. I then realised that some of the beams weren’t of a similar weight. On changing the weights it began to work similar to WM2D.

I’m getting the feeling that there is something here.

I just hope that feeling is right.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

One other thing I would like to add is that I believe that it is not tuned correctly. It needs to be optimized not just for one mechanism but for several crossbars working together. All the crossbars have to work in harmony with one another or they will work against one another.

Graham

[Robinhood46]

What i find interesting is you haven't got the extended perpendicular rods, or beams, in the last sim.
I'm seeing the wheel with the ratchet wrenches from a socket set, with the end of the handles connected to the opposing wrench. And the addition of a pendulum that forces a tendency for the wrenches to be nudged over a bit in one direction.

I can't see what you are doing that is giving the positive result.
The fact that both sims are showing the same is promising. Have you tried playing with different variables to see what causes a change between the two sims? If so, are they always showing the same results, regardless of modifications, or is there a tendency for one sim to stop before the other, depending on which details you change?

If i select the wheel in your simulation and select "liquify" it always shuts the programme down. First time i didn't understand what was happening when i tried to erase the wheel to get behind it, and inadvertently hit liquify instead of erase, but it does it each and every time i select liquify. It's not normal, because it doesn't do it with all objects, and It doesn't happen with any of my own wheels, or components. Is it possible there is a bug of some description, or do you do something to the wheel that could be causing this?
Even if there is a bug of some description in Algodoo, it certainly wouldn't be causing the simulation to show over unity in WM2D.

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Roxaway,
J'ai manipulé votre Sim, lors de l'arret du moteur l'ensemble conserve l'inertie et contiue à tourner.
Si l'on fixe le disque et que l'on démarre sans le moteur, puis qu'on libère le disque cela reste imobile!
Je pense que l'oscillation du pendule génère une légère rotation hors frottements.
Je pense que ce concept rejoint le test que j'ai fais avec la roue excentrique, la trajectoire des poids en bout de bras est circulaire.
L'axe virtuel de la trajectoire des poids oscille de la même manière que mon test!

Hello Roxaway,
I manipulated your Sim, when stopping the engine the whole retains the inertia and continues to turn.
If you fix the disc and start without the engine, then release the disc it remains imobile!
I think that the oscillation of the pendulum generates a slight rotation without friction.
I think this concept joins the test I did with the eccentric wheel, the trajectory of the weights at the end of the arm is circular.
The virtual axis of the weight trajectory oscillates in the same way as my test!

[Roxaway59]

Hi Shadow, yes it is the oscillations that make it work. If the oscillations are only slight then it stops but if they are at a certain level it continues.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Hi Robinhood46, you raised a few points so I will try to address them.

As you know WM2D and Algodoo are very different programs so when I say they are behaving the same way or words to that effect its very difficult to get them doing exactly the same thing. Also the sims are not absolutely identical as you may have noticed because I didn't have a lot of time when I was doing it.

Its possible to make them more identical but because of how my old copy of WM2D is this can be difficult to achieve.

In the past I have done a great deal of simulations like the ones I showed at the start of this thread and at the time there were lots of discussions about oscillators.

I even built real basic models of one of these and when I turned it I thought the damn thing was going to keep going.

In Algodoo they did keep going but Algodoo is not real but the question remains is it showing us something that is important?

I still don't have the answer to that and I suspect that the best way to do this is to optimize these simulations and keep WM2D and Algodoo agreeing as much as possible and then do extensive real builds to check it out.

I believe that the added large pendulum is behaving like a stabilizing force like a flywheel but more than that there is also something a little tricky taking place with the interaction between it and the double pendulum.

For one thing the roller on the double pendulum actually moves up and down the large pendulum slightly as it swings. The interaction between these pendulums is obviously a positive feedback loop in the simulations but can this positive feedback loop exist in real life?

I may have missed a few things but I hope this answers some of your questions.
Graham