MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

[Fletcher]

@ all ..

Commenting on another topic in another thread the other day reminded me this morning to ask the community about the MT51 comments ( from Bessler, in German ) - I think John Collins could probably shed some light to aid my investigation, and/or dax or jb may have some relevant input etc, to clear this up ..

Background .. JC's original MT collection ( hard copy booklet ) was first published in 2007 - IIRC he said in the forwards that the original translations came to him thru Glenn Rouse, who sourced them from Andrew Witter, who had done the painstaking translations of very difficult writing to read ( I think we can all agree on that ) .. what I had noticed from time to time was that in the later e-book format the last sentence of the MT51 comments had been changed, what I consider significantly on face value - and that piqued my interest on how and why it got changed, and what is the word for word translation of the last sentence ? - now there may be no significant change at all in meaning but as part of my investigation I would like all opinions regarding this perhaps irrelevant "anomaly" ? ..

IIRC JC said he had made some alterations to the Andrew Witter translations where he thought it was appropriate and I'm sure that was just house-keeping and readability inspired - so perhaps it was his changes or maybe someone else offered a more accurate translation that I don't remember happening ? ..

Anyhoo .. the last sentences for both the original hard copy and the later digital version seem at variance ( in meaning ) to me - and I'd like to clear up what exactly the last sentence of the MT51 comments actually say accurately, if you can help ? ..

The best picture of the comments in question I have is the one below that I made yesterday from JC's MT digital version ( much thanks ) ..

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Detail .. below are the relevant translations from my files ..

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
The original notes attached to each drawing were painstakingly read and translated by Andrew Witter, to whom I owe a debt of gratitude for taking the trouble to pore over some barely legible documents to extract the meaning. Over a period of several months I have made some alterations and corrections to his translations, where I felt that they were due. I hope that these will in no way detract from the impressive work he has done, and that he will forgive me for making these changes. Doubtless further improvements will, in time, be made to my own efforts. There are, I am sure, more errors contained within these words but hopefully they are minimal as far as understanding the intent of the original author, Johann Bessler. I should also thank Glenn Rouse for informing me of Andrew Witter’s work and for providing facsimiles of a number of original Bessler documents, complete with English translations also done by Andrew Witter.

Maschinen Tractate
The following pictures originate from sketches drawn by Johann Bessler and they are reproduced in their original condition so as to avoid undue omissions through the enhancing process. Digitally enhanced versions of these drawings can be found at www.orffyre.com. I have, however, added a few comments and added enlargements of pictures where I thought it useful. My comments appear in italics...

Further demonstrations regarding the possibility and impossibility of perpetual motion.

N.B. 1st May, 1733. Due to the arrest, I burned or hid all the woodcuts that prove the possibility. However, I have left all demonstrations and experiments since it would be difficult for anybody to see or learn anything about a perpetual motion from them or to decide whether there was any truth in them because no illustration by itself contains a description of the motion; however, taking various illustrations together and combining them with a discerning mind, it will indeed be possible to look for a movement and, finally to find one in them'.

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2007 Hard Copy .. No. 51 This is a perpendicular invention, which is meant to maintain motion by means of oscillation. A is a pendulum with springs at the top, or pawls, which catch in a small ratchet wheel B, which is fastened to the axle of wheel E. D, shows the pendulum with pawls by itself. H is a horizontal pendulum, or balance beam, which is moved by the crank I. on one side and the pendulum F, and by means of G on the other side. Thus by swinging of the pendulum, a motion is effected but in a faulty manner.

Later e-version .. No. 51 This is a perpendicular invention which is meant to maintain motion by means of oscillation. A is a perpendicular with stoppers, or stop-cones, at the top which catch in a small wheel B. A fastens onto the wheel E. D show the perpendicular per se with stop-cones. H is a horizontal perpendicular, or beam of a balance. H moves by means of the curved implement I on the one side and the perpendicular F at G on the other side. Motion by means of the oscillation of H is expected, but the invention is wisely criticized.

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[John Collins]

It’s a fair question, but after more than 17 years I can’t give you definite answer fletch. I believe that in some cases I tried to read the handwriting and was able to ‘adjust’ Andrew Witter’s translation, but sometimes I tried to improve his English grammar! In this case I obviously failed. I didn’t get anyone else involved in improving the translation.

In his original translation the repeated prints of MT 1 and 2 include Witter’s translation of the words under drawing no.1 as ‘the smoke and oil print’, which I was able correct to the more familiar term of ‘lamp black’.

I mention this as that correction appeared in both the hard copies and the E copies which were produced at about the same time but the E copies had some minor changes to the translations subsequent to the printing of the hard copy. So I assume that ‘…a motion is effected but in a faulty manner’ is what Andrew Witter originally translated. Whether I was able to read Bessler’s handwriting all those years ago and had a go at translating the original German, I simply can’t remember. I wish I could say I had an original copy of Witter’s translation, but I don’t think I have.

Maybe there is someone here who is fluent in German, who could access the original copies of MT and have a go at trying to read Bessler’s words and translate them? Just trying to read them today gives me a headache?

JC

[thx4]

I think that B in MT51 expresses an idea but not its feasibility.
We know how little energy is required from a spring or a weight to maintain the movement of the balance wheel, and how little energy is required to maintain a thrown inertia disc.
I have in my drawers the idea of a balance that would have very very little loss, the balance is fixed on a wheel in a FIXED manner, the wheel moves horizontally a few degrees on a base, just enough to maintain the movement, friction is close to zero ... I do not know if I am clear, I can make a sketch on occasion.
On the next model, I'm integrating an inertia disk, which I think will smooth out the little gaps before I get any positive feedback.

[Trev]

The best picture of the comments in question I have is the one below that I made yesterday from JC's MT digital version ( much thanks ) ..

Fletch, Here is the full res image scan of the MT51 notes. I will ask my retired German professor friend to have a go at the last sentence. When i showed him the toyspage a few years ago, he was able to read the notes and translate them straight off.

[johannesbender]

All i can say is i do not see the word invention (seen in the first sentence) at the bottom..

[phj]

Thanks to John Collins for his detailed response. Here’s a summary and a way forward based on John’s reply:

Translation Adjustments: John Collins mentioned that after more than 17 years, he can’t recall the exact reasons for the specific changes in the translation of MT51. He noted that while he tried to improve Andrew Witter’s translations for readability and grammar, any adjustments made were his own and not from other translators.

Original vs. Corrected Terms: An example John provided was the correction of "the smoke and oil print" to the more familiar term "lamp black," which was consistent across both the hard copy and e-book versions. This indicates that minor changes were part of his effort to ensure accuracy.

Specific Case of MT51: For MT51, the phrase "a motion is effected but in a faulty manner" seems to be Witter’s original translation. John acknowledged that whether he retranslated Bessler’s original German text himself years ago is something he can’t remember.

Need for Fresh Translation: Given the challenges in reading and translating Bessler’s handwriting, and the lack of an original copy of Witter’s translation, John suggested that someone fluent in German could take a fresh look at the original MT texts.

Moving Forward
Community Help: As John suggested, it would be immensely helpful if someone in our community fluent in German could access the original MT copies. They could try to decipher and translate Bessler’s original words, especially focusing on the last sentence of MT51.

Discussion and Analysis: Once we have a new translation, we can compare it with both the original hard copy and the e-book versions to identify any significant differences in meaning.

Final Thoughts:
John’s efforts over the years have provided a robust foundation, and with the collective expertise of our community, we can aim to clarify these nuances. Let’s pool our resources and knowledge to delve deeper into Bessler’s intriguing writings.

Best regards, PHJ

[phj]

My Analysis of the Last Sentence in MT51
The phrase “a motion is effected but in a faulty manner” suggests that Bessler's mechanism achieves some form of motion, but it doesn't function perfectly or as intended. Here’s a detailed breakdown of what this might mean:

Partial Success:
The mechanism is capable of generating movement, which indicates that Bessler was on the right track with his design principles. This is significant because it shows that the idea was not entirely flawed.

Design Flaws:
The term “faulty manner” implies that there are issues with the mechanism. These could be structural weaknesses, inefficiencies, or specific components that don’t work as expected. It suggests that while the basic concept might be sound, the execution needs refinement.

Further Innovation Needed:
This sentence could be Bessler's acknowledgment that the mechanism requires further development. It may hint at potential improvements or adjustments that could make the motion more efficient and reliable.

Reflection of Experimental Phase:
The statement might reflect the experimental nature of Bessler’s work at that time. It shows that he was testing and iterating on his designs, encountering both successes and failures. This iterative process is common in innovation and engineering.

PHJ

[Robinhood46]

My honesty often gets me in trouble, but i much prefer working with the unpleasant reality, than a pleasant illusion.
The more we try to get down to the nitty gritties, of the true signification of Bessler's words, the more i am inclined to think that we only have JC's perception of their signification to work with.

With all due respect, i would like to know what Bessler wrote, not what John thinks it meant, or thought it meant, at that particular moment of his research. As much as i am in admiration for all his hard work he has spoiled it by adding his turn to what everything means.

I would have preferred Bessler's words that don't really make any sense, over John's words that make a lot more sense, but are no longer Bessler's words. I know how hard translating can be, and i am still, as i have already shared many times, in admiration for all John's work on the subject.
I am only really pleased 97.5% of everything he has done, so please don't misinterpret this I'm anti or against, this isn't politics we can have different opinions and be on the same side.

Is it possible John, that you can publish the original translations before you improved them? Or maybe give them to someone who has the time, and the desire, to pick out all the discrepancies? Can AI be trusted to do such a simple but tedious task?

[John Collins]

As far as I am aware, I haven’t added anything to any translations other than a poor attempt to reread the MT notes. All the other translations were done by Mike Senior who is no longer with us. I understand what you’re point is and if I could go back in time to when Mike asked me if I wanted a word for word translation or what he believe Bessler wrote, I might have considered the other option. I had absolutely no idea what was in any of the books so I chose what seemed to be a good idea at the time.

Mike was a polymath with degrees in 18th C German, Ancient Greek, Latin, astronomy, maths and Botany. Including a deep interest in subjects I could not even begin to understand (Riemann hypothesis, string theory, quantum mechanics and other unsolved problems in mathematics.) He was a member of Mensa and loved to talk about his latest interest.

He also said on several occasions, that I must know, of course that Bessler’s wheel must have been a fake! He couldn’t know everything, and he did come up with some ideas that he thought might have been behind it.

So RH, my point is that Mike knew his subjects and I went along with his translations. He was a genius but not a stuffed shirt, he liked his beer and whiskey!

He wrote everything down by hand (he had no interest in computers unfortunately) but his translations had many asides in the form of comments which I didn’t include in my publications. I still have them and I should probably read them again for the extra information.

JC

[Trev]

Below is the reply from my friend the retired German professor. I only asked if he could read the last sentence, but he very kindly had a go at the whole piece. His translation is quite literal but you get the general idea:

Dear Trev,
It needed some hours to read the text and to translate it all from German again to have an imagination of what it is about. There are two words I cannot read at all, and some are a little bit insecure, but this version I think would make sense.

No. 51 Eine Perpendicul=Invention, den Schwung eines motus erhalten zu wollen. A ist ein
Perpendicul, mit Federn oben oder Sperr=Kegeln, welche in
ein Rädgen (Rädchen) B eingreifen, welches an der Axe des Rades E
befestiget. D zeiget das Perpendikel per se mit Sperr=Kegeln
H ist ein Horizont Perpendicul, oder Waagebalken, der zuerst
einer Richtung durch die Courve i, und dann auf der ander Seite, bey
G das Pendicul F ?????, und also durch dessen Schwung einem
motus gehorchet, Es aber in der weisen Censur gestaltet wird.


51. A Perpendicul=Invention, willing to keep the oscillation. A. is a
Perpendicul with feathers or stop-cones, which are engaged into
a little wheel B., which is fastened to the axis of the wheel E.
D. shows the perpendicule a such with the stop-cones.
H. is a horizontal perpendicul, or balance beam, which moves (??? Word I cant´read) first
in the direction of the curve i, and then on the other side,
to the pendicul F (????), whose oscillation obeys a movement,
(???) which is formed by a wise censorship (control)

[johannesbender]

A gpt translation of the provided text .

translate this word for word

No. 51 Eine Perpendicul=Invention, den Schwung eines motus erhalten zu wollen. A ist ein
Perpendicul, mit Federn oben oder Sperr=Kegeln, welche in
ein Rädgen (Rädchen) B eingreifen, welches an der Axe des Rades E
befestiget. D zeiget das Perpendikel per se mit Sperr=Kegeln
H ist ein Horizont Perpendicul, oder Waagebalken, der zuerst
einer Richtung durch die Courve i, und dann auf der ander Seite, bey
G das Pendicul F ?????, und also durch dessen Schwung einem
motus gehorchet, Es aber in der weisen Censur gestaltet wird.

Sure, here is the word-for-word translation of the provided text:

No. 51 A pendulum invention, wanting to obtain the swing of a motus. A is a pendulum, with springs on top or ratchet pegs, which engage in a small wheel B, which is attached to the axis of the wheel E. D shows the pendulum by itself with ratchet pegs. H is a horizontal pendulum, or balance beam, which first follows a direction through the curve i, and then on the other side, at G the pendulum F ???, and thus through its swing obeys a motus, but is designed in the wise censorship.

(Note: The question marks indicate a part of the text that was unclear or possibly missing.)

what is a motus

The term "motus" is Latin for "motion" or "movement." In the context of the provided text, "motus" refers to the motion or movement of the pendulum mechanism being described.

The different versions do seem to describe the image more or less the same , its just that last sentence , the punch line ,may be wisely criticized or censored ? i don't really see him critiquing though ..

[John Collins]

Alois Zimmermann emailed about this sentence in MT51

“ Hello Mr. Collins,

Mr. Fletcher asked in the Forum about the last sentence of MT 51.

In German the words may be:
“... und also durch dessen Schwung ein motus gehoffet,
Es aber in der Weisen Censur gestellet wird.”

The translation could be:
“... and thus hoped for a motus through its momentum,
But it is placed in the censure of the wise.”

Perhaps you can bring it to the forum,
because i am no longer registered.

Best wishes
Alois Zimmermann”

JC

[johannesbender]

JC , That sounds more sensible to me .

[Fletcher]

Thanks fellas for your contributions to the topic - and especially to Trev, please thank your professor friend for taking the time to translate what I couldn't even read, let alone begin to understand ..

I have taken the responses and then tackled the problem of meaning ( which meaning is likely more accurate ) from the reverse direction - when I come back I'll post that investigation direction ..

In the meantime we know that B. used words in MT that we easily recognize in the English language of today - as jb said "invention" is easily distinguishable in the first sentence but is not seen in the last, meaning that the translator probably inferred it in that context - the context was an early 18th century written comment in German about a machine .. he also used recognizable words such as "motus" ( Latin for motion/momentum ) and "movement" on occasion iinm - he also used "momentum" and "force" in some MT's - as well as "demonstration" and "experiment" ( see the "arrest forward" ) I would expect B. to be reasonably consistent in the descriptive words and adjectives he used throughout MT etc - so I take that into consideration when 2 or more potential meaning arise ..

Back soon as I can ..

[Fletcher]

First the professors translation - last part only as it relates to the machine described previously of which there is little to dispute ..

Q to CGPT .. In the context of a written comment about a machine, and that the language is early 18th century German, please translate with appropriate period nuance the following to English. ", und also durch dessen Schwung einem motus gehorchet, Es aber in der weisen Censur gestaltet wird."

Certainly! Here is a translation of the phrase into English with appropriate period nuance for early 18th-century German:

", and thus by its momentum obeys a motion, but it is fashioned in wise scrutiny."

This translation aims to capture the formal and somewhat archaic tone typical of the early 18th century.

Q to CGPT .. Please translate this English translation into German of the early 18th century period. "Thus by swinging of the pendulum, a motion is effected but in a faulty manner."

Certainly! Here is the translation of the given English sentence into early 18th-century German:

"Also durch das Schwingen des Pendels wird eine Bewegung bewirkt, aber auf fehlerhafte Weise."

This translation maintains the formal and slightly archaic tone suitable for the period.

Q to CGPT .. Please translate the following English into German of the same early 18th century period. "Motion by means of the oscillation is expected, but the invention is wisely criticized."

Certainly! Here is the translation of the given English sentence into early 18th-century German:

"Eine Bewegung durch die Schwingung wird erwartet, aber die Erfindung ( invention ) wird weise kritisiert."

Note the use of weise vs weisen and the placement of the word in the sentence ..

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Then I asked DeepL to back-translate from English to German for comparison purposes ..

So wird durch das Schwingen des Pendels eine Bewegung bewirkt, jedoch auf fehlerhafte Weise

In this way, the swinging of the pendulum causes a movement, but in a faulty way

"Also durch das Schwingen des Pendels wird eine Bewegung bewirkt, aber auf fehlerhafte Weise."

‘So a movement is caused by the swinging of the pendulum, but in a faulty way.’

"Eine Bewegung durch die Schwingung wird erwartet, aber die Erfindung wird weise kritisiert."

‘Movement by the oscillation is expected, but the invention is wisely criticised.’

und also durch dessen Schwung einem motus gehorchet, Es aber in der weisen Censur gestaltet wird.

and thus obeys a motus by means of its swing, but it is shaped in the wise censure. ( n.b. the professor brackets the word "Control" beside censure i.e. regulate/guide imo ..

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