MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

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Re: MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

Post by Fletcher »

johannesbender wrote:
I think Chad was on it to combine them , however that is much as i looked at (just the image alone) , but i would still yet again , go as far as saying i don't think it was a remedy for those particular designs that were of any significance , but i cant ignore how he highlights certain "parts" in certain ways in MT , until now i am not sure what he was attempting to convey (as are others) .

So i am still in the middle ground observing the interesting points , something should float to the surface some day .
Agree, I am suggesting MT13 was mechanically a symbolic representation of a 2 part system as explained in the post above - however I think it also shares some DNA of his very first prototype runner fwiw .. but in essence not to be taken too seriously or literally imo ..

Time willing, more today ..

..............
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Re: MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

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daxwc wrote:
Fletcher: MT13 .. many of us, including me, feel that MT13 is an important illustration ..13 is in some circumstances a significant number for Christianity - i.e. representing the 12 disciples plus Jesus at the last supper ..
Fletcher I am going to give you a different perspective to ponder.

Although Bessler is a Christian and my opinion very religious; he is although a self-confessed reborn Christian. He admitted dabbling with spirits whether in black or in white, it doesn’t matter.

My opinion MT 13 is mirrored for a tantalizing reason. However, the general belief that 13 is unlucky has ancient origins and exists in various cultures.

Christianity: In Christian tradition, the Last Supper had 13 attendees (Jesus and his 12 apostles), with Judas Iscariot, the apostle who betrayed Jesus, often labeled as the 13th guest.
ChatGPT: ...

Conclusion .. Yes, Judas Iscariot is indeed associated with the devil in Christian theology. This association, combined with his role as the 13th guest at the Last Supper, has contributed significantly to the superstition surrounding the number 13 in Western culture.
So, Fletcher, consider the context of Orffyreus and his era. In the 18th century, the belief that the number 13 carried an unlucky or malevolent power was widespread, stemming from various traditions, including Christian theology where Judas Iscariot, influenced by Satan, was the 13th guest at the Last Supper.

Bessler, as a man deeply embedded in the mysticism and superstitions of his time, would have been aware of these beliefs. To counteract the malevolent power associated with the number 13, he might have employed a clever technique in his work in MT.

The devil, often referred to as Satan, Lucifer, Beelzebub, or the Prince of Darkness, is traditionally believed to be incapable of seeing his own reflection. Mirrors, in folklore, have the power to reveal truth and dispel deception, attributes antithetical to the nature of the devil, who is known as the 'Father of Lies.'

Bessler, understanding this, could have used mirroring in his MT 13 drawing to hide his true intentions and mechanisms from the devil. By presenting images in a mirrored fashion, he effectively robbed the number 13 of its malevolent power. The devil, unable to confront his reflection, would be thwarted by the mirrored image, unable to perceive the true nature of Bessler's work.

In this way, Bessler's use of mirroring serves as an ultimate snub to Beelzebub. He turns the devil’s power on its head, protecting his inventions from malevolent influence and safeguarding his secrets from any prying eyes—both human and infernal.
An interesting contribution dax .. I did not know of the lore about mirrors - but as you say marrying a mirroring strategy to the illustration of number 13 could well be a B. double-whammy of "protecting his inventions from malevolent influence and safeguarding his secrets", and revealing the truth as per "mirrors, in folklore, have the power to reveal truth".

That is if I have understood you correctly and it is potentially a doubling-down strategy for good fortune and luck - aka to reveal the truth but at the same time protect the truth from unwanted influences, and negate the unlucky number 13 connotations, while recognising the religious significance and the power of the number 13 in his personal and very important to him religious beliefs context ..

Unless I read you wrong this was designed to be a good omen ..

...........
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Re: MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

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You got the gist. I read of this years ago where Leonardo da Vinci wrote in mirror style to hide bad omen from Satan because Satan couldn't go to a mirror to read it. It was not a for sure statement (there is no evidence why Leonardo da Vinci wrote in this style for this reason) but supposedly that there were people earlier that did this. AI doesn't seem to have any real information on it.
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Re: MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

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dax .. segwaying onto my next points lol ..

MT13 is a mirrored illustration - it is the right way up, and is the first CCW operating machine - it potentially has religious and lore significance to B. to be represented this way ..

MT15, while having no lettering legend to confirm its intentional mirroring, is the second machine presenting as a CCW one - it is said by B. to be missing the prime mover ..

But of course, there is one other MT that is also a CCW machine ..

This is MT113 - note that in AP B. says ..

John Collins/Bessler AP pg 300 .. "Day and night I toiled with hardly any respite, searching all the time, until, with the strength that God has lent me, I found the way to make 100 odd machines. Only after all those did I find the Mobile I had thirsted after.

n.b. 13 + 100 = 113 ..

MT113 does have lettering on show, and is the last of 4 machines side-by-side on the one page - the first 3 from left to right are the right way up and intended to operate CW as shown - the last ( MT113 ) is shown upside down but when righted is designed to operate CCW ..

There is not much to MT113 imo - it is just a simply drawn continuous chain around 2 vertically aligned pulley/cog wheels - the significance is that it uses lever-weights with a restricted movement - they are able to hang down against the chain body on the ascending side and when reaching the top at A are lifted to be perpendicular ( at right angles ) to the chain body on the descending side - thus a torque is created ..

However, as we all know this is the classic height for width problem, and a configuration that many ( remember Murilo ) have tried in vain to solve or find a workaround to get continued rotation etc etc .. it's a bust because the lws need periodic lifting ..

So what's so interesting about this machine, and why is it a CCW machine turned upside down in the series of 4 on that page, so at first glance they all present as CW machines ? - there is imo only one interesting or redeeming feature about that particular illustration - that is the limited/restricted approx. 90 degree movement of the lws ( a stop or pawl ) - and so this imo circles us back and connects us to the main message of the topic tile i.e. MT51 and its one-way bearing / sprag clutch assembly which takes up half the available page .. re. "correct-handle construction", that employ the, "hang together principle" push B. gives us in the MT's 9 and 10 prior to MT's 13 and 15 ..

More on my deductions about the prime mover and the toy page to come ..

ETA .. thanks for the mirrored writing connection to da Vinci dax - I was aware of his notes being in mirrored writing but to be honest I thought it was to make them hard to read for any casual onlooker - but if earlier people also did it it seems it could have authenticity and longstanding merit to be a passed down practice in some circles ..

.............
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Re: MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

Post by Fletcher »

Here's MT113 ..

..............
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Re: MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

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As Roxaway59 has just schooled me there is a lot of images that can be mirrored; anything with just a letter A or A's.
MT 12, 13, 20, 35, 49, 95, 43, 16, 33, 43, 83
Does number box have to start on the left? That would whittle the number down.
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Re: MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

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Don't forget Fletcher the NB in 103 with the hand drawing similar to MT113
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Re: MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

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As Roxaway59 has just schooled me there is a lot of images that can be mirrored; anything with just a letter A or A's.

MT 12, 13, 20, 35, 49, 95, 43, 16, 33, 43, 83

Does number box have to start on the left? That would whittle the number down.
I think you can remove MT49 from your list above - there is an A, B, and C the right way around ..

So technically anything that doesn't have any lettering, or just an A or bent-arm A, or both, or O ( anything with vertical symmetry ), could be mirrored if the image was copied thru to the back of the paper - BUT - I am talking about illustrations presented as CCW turning machines as being different from those that are presented as CW turning, or front or back view etc ..

Those where the woodcut was deliberately carved CW so that when printed onto paper the image showed the machine rotating CCW ..

Admittedly woodcuts and printing are one of your areas - but as I understand it a woodcut block being inked and printed out onto paper is like holding your hands in front of your eyes pressed together like in prayer, and then opening them out flat like a book with the spine your little fingers ..

Skooling is good, some lessons are enjoyable :7) ..

ETA .. yep, thanx dax .. had forgotten about the hand-drawn-in continuous chain and 2 cogs of MT103 ..
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Re: MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

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Voir écriture spéculaire! Wiki*

See specular writing! Wiki*
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Re: MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

Post by mickegg »

Hi Fletcher and all


Re: MT 113

I've often wondered if perhaps the "circle and arrow" at the top of the second from left figure, could also
be a reminder to MT13 ?

Do the two "freehand" crosses also re-enforce that link?

Regards

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Re: MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

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mickegg: Do the two "freehand" crosses also re-enforce that link?
My personal opinion and I haven’t confirmed this is that the marks are by Bessler and they relate to the construction layout and wheter he is working in squares or 3-4-5 with the circles. Not sure why but the front page and those hatch marks are pointing to how he starts to draw. But it might relate in other ways also.
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Re: MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

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Fletcher: BUT - I am talking about illustrations presented as CCW turning machines as being different from those that are presented as CW turning, or front or back view etc ..
I will have to sit this one out. I don’t know how many times I have made a wheel thinking it was rotating one direction only to find it works better rotating in the other. I am just smart enough to know that I know that I don’t know. That includes MT113
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Re: MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

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Fletcher, why is the conveyer “cogs” square in MT 113? Wouldn’t pentagon cogs provide better tipping point at transition?
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Re: MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

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Fletcher: So what's so interesting about this machine, and why is it a CCW machine turned upside down in the series of 4 on that page, so at first glance they all present as CW machines ? - there is imo only one interesting or redeeming feature about that particular illustration - that is the limited/restricted approx. 90 degree movement of the lws ( a stop or pawl ) - and so this imo circles us back and connects us to the main message of the topic tile i.e. MT51 and its one-way bearing / sprag clutch assembly which takes up half the available page .. re. "correct-handle construction", that employ the, "hang together principle" push B. gives us in the MT's 9 and 10 prior to MT's 13 and 15 ..
Similar to the concept in MT 133 which only cogs in one direction but slips in the other. Well... vague action.
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Re: MT51 Comments Enquiry ?

Post by daxwc »

I never noticed the before. Bessler call MT15 a ratchet wheel.
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