Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

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Roxaway59
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

Its never a good idea for me to write a post in the early hours of the morning but here goes.

I have an idea about what Besslers wheel and mechanisms might have been based on so I want to share it just to see what others think.

A while ago I posted this -
Another thought I have had is one that I wanted to post separately about but may be relevant to the previous one.

In electronics when people talk about signal processing there are two main trains of thought and that is digital and analogue.

I think its fair to say that most people on the forum wouldn’t think about the Bessler wheel as a digital system. However Bessler does hint at a digital embellishment on the Toy Page. One is the hammer men and the other is the jacobs ladder. Both these systems have the capability to switch states.

Why are digital systems used rather than analogue?

Most of us think of a computer as a digital device but the early computer systems were mainly analogue. One of the reasons that computer systems are digital is because a digital system has lower power requirements and these lower power requirements can be linked to Besslers wheel to a certain degree.

How do they handle power more efficiently?

Think of it this way.

Watts = Voltage x Current so you need both Voltage and Current to produce heat in an electrical component like a resistor or a transistor.

When a transistor is turned on resulting in 0V across its collector and emitter and say 100ma flowing through it that would be 0 x 0.1 = 0 Watts.

If on the other hand the transistor is turned off then the supply voltage may be across the collector and emitter but no current flowing through it so if the supply was 5V this would be 5 x 0 = 0 Watts.

Either way with a perfect transistor there would be no heat.

In reality there are no perfect transistors so there is usually a tiny voltage across it when its turned on but it is the time it takes to turn off and on that is the problem and because it cant do it instantaneously there is a certain amount of time when both the voltage and the current is present.

The hammer men may be a good indication that something switches on Besslers wheel but the knocking sound is also another give away.

Perhaps the best indication is what Bessler said about the excess weight rising really quick. Only something that switches abruptly does that.

To be honest I find it hard to imagine a better example of that than the one that Robinhood demonstrated. If that isn’t a switch then I don’t know what is. The weight suddenly switches from one radius to another and because of the sudden switch the wheel immediately accelerates.

On this thread I have very often wrote about the idea of hanging weights having the ability to be in two different places in no time at all. This is exactly what that idea does. It switches from being felt at the bottom of the wheel to further up at a smaller radius.

Its understandable that people tend to avoid sudden movements on the wheels that they design because for one thing it seems harder to control such movements and more inevitable that something is going to collide in a negative way.

However with some of the things hinted at by Bessler that things moved quickly its hard for me to dispel the notion that something abruptly switched almost like a digital circuit.
The idea is based around things switching states.

A while ago I was messing around with a simulation in Algodoo and at times the beams would lock up and the mechanism would behave differently.

If you look at the last 2 sims / pictures I posted you will see that both seem to hold their weights out quite far.

The first one does but the second one is really just oscillating. The first cant work because the weights are just being forced into position and there is no oscillating like the second one and the second one oscillates nicely but its weights never get held in an overbalanced state.

My thinking is what if like the transistor example above Bessler went for the middle ground. Sometimes his weights where swinging and at other times they latched into position and keeled the wheel then unlatched so they could once again swing from their pivots.

Sounds kinda simple and I can almost hear you say well if that’s possible prove it.

In all honesty I don’t know if I can but I have seen at least one mechanism behave a little like this and it happened by accident.

Anyway it would be nice to have other peoples thoughts on this and I will try to dig out a decent Sim example of what I am saying tomorrow and post it.

Graham
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by SHADOW »

Bonjour Graham,
Vos analogies electroniques sont à retenir, elles m'ont servie pour la roue hydraulique à pistons et sont une piste pour sortir de l'ornière!

Hi Graham,
Your electronic analogies are to remember, they served me for the hydraulic piston wheel and are a track to get out of the rut!
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

Hi Shadow, you do lots of very interesting simulations and if something I write helps in any way then I'm glad about that.

Graham
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

Here is the type of sim I was talking about yesterday and this type easily lock up and do odd things.

The Algodoo version is the one where I noticed it lock up around 4 o'clock then it overbalanced the wheel and unlocked itself at 6 o'clock.

I should explain that the Algodoo version speeds up for no reason and you can see the difference between it and the WM2D version which is identical.

They both turn then lock up when the beams are vertical then they behave like a pendulum.

Algodoo by design seems to have randomness built into it so if you persevere you may get it to do what I saw but I wasn't able to recreate that today. I have altered the script so the motor turns off automatically but you may get better results by altering the speed of the motor.

Graham
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

There are a few things I would like to say about this idea but I am going to leave it until I can recreate the action better. If this is anything like what Bessler did then the knocking sound would be the mechanisms locking up.

Graham
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Daniel.R »

I remember a specific image discussed on this forum. I think the thread was called "Bessler's Kinematics" or something like that.

It was an engraving of several mechanical principles, including a ramp, a pendulum, and a balanced pulley with two weights, etc. I have tried to find this image again, but with the updated forum, the old images seem to be gone.

If anyone knows what I'm talking about, you are more than welcome to post the image. I am not sure of the background of the image, and Bessler may not be the source of this engraving.

/Daniel
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by johannesbender »

Daniel.R wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2024 10:02 am I remember a specific image discussed on this forum. I think the thread was called "Bessler's Kinematics" or something like that.

It was an engraving of several mechanical principles, including a ramp, a pendulum, and a balanced pulley with two weights, etc. I have tried to find this image again, but with the updated forum, the old images seem to be gone.

If anyone knows what I'm talking about, you are more than welcome to post the image. I am not sure of the background of the image, and Bessler may not be the source of this engraving.

/Daniel
That would be the image from the wager offered to bessler.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Fletcher »

That seems like the one jb .. the wager to B. pamphlet ..

https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/view ... 53#p207753

.................
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

I've been looking at info about script in Algodoo but its slow progress so far.

Some things just don't seem to work for some reason so I'm obviously doing something wrong.

I will stay with it though because apart from the simulation I need to recreate that Fletcher did I'm realizing that its very useful for simulations in general.

Graham
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by johannesbender »

Roxaway59 wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:14 pm I've been looking at info about script in Algodoo but its slow progress so far.

Some things just don't seem to work for some reason so I'm obviously doing something wrong.

I will stay with it though because apart from the simulation I need to recreate that Fletcher did I'm realizing that its very useful for simulations in general.

Graham
You can also ask chatgpt to help you with script for algadoo if you want....
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Roxaway59 »

Thanks Johannesbender I will look at that.

I was just thinking the other day about one particular thought that I think has to be one of the most predominant thoughts in most of our minds.

That is, when ever we think about a wheel that we are working on, or just an idea that occurs to us we inevitably think this thought – why should it work?

I cant remember Besslers exact words but he wrote something along the lines of when he finally got an idea that worked he understood why it worked and why the others didn’t.

If I am working on an idea I always end up asking myself the same question and most of the time I cant see clearly why it should work.

I do wonder if Bessler could see clearly why his first working one should work or if he had an afterthought and added something that set it off.

If there is a work around for the law of the levers then that work around should work on a lot of wheels and it would be that work around that would say to us yes this can work.

I don’t get the impression from Bessler that it would be easy to work out what his wheel did (to work) when it was static.

He said when the wheel is revealed that they would say there isn’t much artistry to it or words to that effect and he speaks about “the motion” as though the motion is the key.

So maybe it was the way things moved that really gave the viewer the sense of why it should work. Its just a thought.

The problem with a lot of good wheel ideas is that most are on the verge of working so trying to work out if something could go slightly over unity with our minds is a difficult thing to do.

Would we know that Besslers wheel would go over unity if we saw it with the covers off? That is something that I cant help wondering about.

Maybe we wouldn’t know it until we saw it move.

Graham
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Robinhood46 »

These are the exact same questions i asked myself, when i came to the conclusion of the fundamental difference.
Something must be going on at that isn't usual, something must be different about his wheels that are runners.
It isn't possible to make a wheel that works, with any of the tried, tried again, retried, tried some more, retried again in case the previous tries weren't right and endlessly retried the same things until we all drop dead of old age.

I think he must have thought of a wheel, that had a specific aspect, that none of his previous wheels had, or any attempt from anyone known to him.
When it actually went round on it's own, and he got fed up of pinching himself, he was able to understand that the new detail was primordial, and that no wheel without that detail could ever dream of becoming a runner. Hence he understood why all his previous attempts failed.

My difference doesn't seem to be working, but that doesn't mean a difference isn't necessary. It just means that my difference might not be the right difference. But it still means, in my opinion, if your wheel doesn't have something special about it, it ain't gonna work.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Tarsier79 »

Weights switching states: whoever wants to go on about....

Imo. Swithing states between two specific locations doesnt give us an advantage. You still have to overcome the switching method, then you have to switch weights upwards against gravity. As far as I know, the only way to make a wheel turn under the influence of gravity is to lift weights on it. A wheel isnt the secret to overunity. Overunity is the secret to a working wheel.

As far as hanging weights go, I have tried this method over the years in a number of ways. If you can design a way for the weights to move (not even the mechanism to do so) to keep weights "over-balanced", you are smarter than I am...

Anyway, good luck.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by Fletcher »

John Collins DT .. Bessler XLIII pg 97 hard copy pg 102 digital ..

Der wird ein großer Künstler heißen,
Wer ein schwer Ding leicht hoch kann schmeißen,
Und wenn ein Pfund ein Viertel fällt,
Es vier Pfund hoch vier Viertel schnellt. x
Wer dieses aus kann spekuliren,
Wird bald den Lauf perpetuiren;
Wer aber dieses noch nicht weiß,
Da ist vergebens aller Fleiß;

DeepL translation ..

He will be called a great artist,
Who can throw a heavy thing up easily,
And when a pound drops a quarter,
It flies four pounds four quarters high. x
He who can speculate this out,
Will soon perpetuate the course;
But he who does not yet know this,
All diligence is in vain;


ChatGPT translation ..

He will be called a great artist,
Who can easily throw a heavy thing high,
And when a pound falls a quarter,
It shoots four pounds high four quarters.
Who can speculate on this,
Will soon perpetuate the course;
But whoever does not yet know this,
All effort is in vain.


JC's DT English translation by Mike Senior .. "a great craftsman would be that man who can 'lightly' cause a heavy weight to fly upwards!
Who can make a pound-weight rise as 4 ounces fall, or 4 pounds rise as 16 ounces fall.
If he can sort that out, the motion will perpetuate itself. But if he can't, then his hard work shall be all in vain" – AP pg 295

.. members Stewart & Tinhead ..He will be called a great craftsman, who can easily/lightly (without much effort) throw a heavy thing high, and if one pound falls a quarter, it shoots four pounds four quarters high. &c.

.................

IMO ..

.. there is always an energy cost to lifting against gravity an overbalancing weight such that it gains GPE i.e. gains potential to then discharge as kinetic - in a runner the height reset/restitution is the cause of the runners permanent over-balancing ..

.. B. says it does cost some energy, but not the MA full cost that everybody tries and fails at ( and has done for all eternity ) ( n.b. some = easily/lightly/without much effort ) which zero sums -- iow's, B. found a heavily discounted cost of lifting into position overbalancing weights - to wit, he said - "What if I were to teach the proper method of mechanical application?" ..
T79 wrote:A wheel isn't the secret to overunity. Overunity is the secret to a working wheel.
.. aka -- No discounted lift cost => no overunity wheel/runner ..

.. the greater the energy discount the greater will be the PE achievable, thereafter discharged as KE thru overbalance ..

.. B. found a physical method of raising weight for a much lesser energy cost - a much lower cost than what his contemporaries attempted to use, those being simple machines and force redirection and multiplication technologies common knowledge to mechanics and mathematicians ..

.................
Last edited by Fletcher on Tue Jul 30, 2024 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

Post by johannesbender »

Rox ,here is food for the imagination , ignoring energy again for sims , think about adding motors or actuators somewhere to move the weights , then see which works , is it the side to side method , or is it the pumping method , is it the hamster wheel method , or is it the lifting method , etc etc.

After knowing the results , try and explain why it works.
Last edited by johannesbender on Tue Jul 30, 2024 7:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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