Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[Roxaway59]

Bessler spoke of weights swinging on his wheel and he said they had free movement. This brings to mind something that is going to be important if the weights where allowed to swing for any length of time. The reason I say any length of time is because there was a knocking sound on Besslers wheels and if that sound was a swinging weight coming to an abrupt stop then maybe that changes what I am about to say.

Pendulums that operate close to one another have the potential to couple and affect one another. Some clocks that have separate pendulums so that one is for timing and the other to work the escapement have to be isolated from one another in some way.

On some very accurate clocks the timing pendulum was sometimes kept in a different room to prevent coupling.

There was no escape from coupling on Besslers wheel so if there was say eight swinging weights on it there would have been coupling between them. My gut feeling is that rather than being bothered by this Bessler may of instead used it to his advantage.

Graham

[agor95]

Hi Roxaway59

...
There was no escape from coupling on Besslers wheel so if there was say eight swinging weights on it there would have been coupling between them.
....

One should listen to your 'gut instincts' for that is your right brain trying to alert your left on the way forward.

What coupling can you imagine where one pendulum hanging in the Z plan and swing in the X plain [ZY] have with another swinging in the [ZY].

[Roxaway59]

agor95

What coupling can you imagine where one pendulum hanging in the Z plan and swing in the X plain [ZY] have with another swinging in the [ZY].

I'm taking it that you meant [ZX] for the first one?

If I imagine what you are thinking of correctly and the pendulums are not restricted in any way then I’m thinking 2 main things would happen.

First the pendulums would try to match up their frequencies. Second they might take each other off the swinging plane they are on and end up on the same plane somewhere in between.

This second one is more of a guess than anything else.

Graham

[agor95]

Hi Roxaway59

You are correct the pendulum swinging along the X-axis should only affect the pendulum on the Y-axis by syncing their swings; subject to Z-axis movement. Both are pivoted so they are only allowed too move in their respective plains.

Regards

[Roxaway59]

Hi agor95, well I’m glad I got some things right. There are times when I have problems staying focused and I feel the need to reset my thinking a bit.

Just an update now on what I am doing.

I want to post the fourth block diagram so I have been looking at the things that I feel are relevant to it and this is proving to be very time consuming. Mechanical positive feedback mechanisms is part of the theme and these are quite elusive with not many good examples to be found. Mechanisms that have the ability to overbalance a fair way is another theme and once again there are not many great examples of those.

I found myself experimenting for a few days with a modified version of one of Besslers diagrams and was surprised at how well it worked because I was expecting it to be a lot more clunky. A thought struck me about one possible modification to it and other wheels that he showed and I am still experimenting with these ideas to see how far it can be taken.

I will post these ideas once I have got things sorted

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Some posts that I write are harder than others because of what I am trying to get across.

Sometimes I write them to aid myself in getting my own thoughts straight in my head.

This is one of those types of posts where both of the above apply and I can only hope that what I am thinking is not in any way illusionary. I don’t know about how anyone else feels but finding that I am just treading water after a lot of effort is not a nice feeling.

I do feel that the way I am thinking about this problem is correct and I suppose only time will show if I am right about that.

We all spend a great length of time thinking about the Bessler clues and the way his wheels were said to operate. To a certain degree we take all these clues and try our best to come up with wheel ideas that fit the clues and the witness reports. Its a little bit like putting a jigsaw puzzle together that has a fair amount of pieces missing. We take the box off the shelf, blow off the dust then open the box and try to put the jigsaw puzzle together again for the thousandth time hoping that this time it will be different and that the missing pieces are going to be there.

The only real way forward is to look at the picture we are making and fill in the blanks by deciding what is the most likely form the missing pieces would take. At least that way the missing pieces are based on something rather than nothing.

So with that in mind I will list here again some of the known qualities of Besslers wheels.

1) CoG to the far right on a clockwise wheel.
2) Ability to constantly reset the overbalanced shape.
3) a) Utilization of mechanical positive feedback producing hysteresis.
b) Resistance to reduced RPM when loaded due to hysteresis
4) Knocking sound.
5) Use of springs.

So with these things in mind I have set about exploring these qualities.

As I was doing this I started reading the explanations on some of the MT wheels and one of the first that jumped out at me was MT10.

No. 10. This is just the same as the previous model, except that the weighted rods are more curved and longer. The principle is good, but the figure is not yet complete until I illustrate it very differently at the appropriate place and grasp the correct construction.

What Bessler does a lot of the time is he hints that his special principal can work with lots of wheels. Certain thoughts have occurred to me why this may be but just recently I added another one to that list and it is this latest one and the work I have done so far on it that I would like to share.

Before I continue I just want to make a point that I think is very important.

How many people on the forum if you was stood in front of Besslers wheel designs and the covers were removed would expect to see an overbalanced shape to the mechanisms?

I’m betting that most would expect to see a shape that looks like it wants to keel over.

There are some people that would probably say no it wouldn't be obvious that it could turn and this would be because they have ideas about how Besslers wheel worked that involves less obvious forces that require more scrutiny.

I believe that it would take up an obvious overbalanced shape. I believe this for a lot of reasons but one of the main ones is because Bessler himself hints time and again about an obvious overbalanced nature to his wheels. For him to do this and misdirect people in this way is extremely unlikely in my opinion. If we take MT15 as an example he says this.

No. 15. This ratchet-wheel derives from the previous model, except that the tensioners are somewhat longer and have an additional special weight at the outer ends. From this drawing alone, however, nothing of the prime mover's source can be seen or deduced although the figure shows the overbalance.

THE OVERBALANCE as in what else do you expect to see. For Bessler to do this and give people this false impression when the book he is writing was originally about revealing his masterpiece I think is going too far. The overbalanced shape is everything because if you lose that you lose the overbalance.

Another thing that I believe is that if you uncovered one of Besslers two way wheels at rest you would still see that overbalanced shape. Like Bessler said seeming is not the same as being. We all know by now that just because something looks overbalanced it does not mean that it is. So although the two shapes may be similar the real one is just more so.

So here is a picture of my recreation of MT10 and at rest you can see it looks similar to Besslers and it has an overbalanced shape at rest.

[Roxaway59]

So the reason it doesn't turn is not because of the shape but because of the distribution of its weights.

I started to think what if it is possible to use the shape as a framework because the shape is correct.

First I did this.

[Roxaway59]

This did nothing because the loop just hung its weight at a fixed point.

Next I did this.

[Roxaway59]

This was a lot more interesting and the weight was spread over the shape.

From a stand still it first keels and tries to keep its shape but fails to do so. This would be the reset.

Next I did this.

[Roxaway59]

This is now starting to look remarkably like my block diagram.

This didn't go over unity but I did notice some things that were interesting in the way it behaved.

The last one I did was this one.

[Roxaway59]

This last one behaved in an interesting way also but as you can see the extra weights are also uneven in their distribution.

Notice that these extra weights fold inwards.

For anyone who wants the simulations just let me know.

I will add some more thoughts on this tomorrow.

Graham

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Roxaway?
Une courte réponse en cette période estivale ou il y a peux d'échange!
Votre travail n'est pas vain mais je ne partage pas vos données de départ.
Nous avons une roue qui tourne avec ses dimensions, sa vitesse de rotation et une évaluation de sa puissance plus du bruit!
C'est tout, le reste sont des témoignages et de la poudre aux yeux de la part de Bessler surtout dans ses écrits.
Je pense que si les poids ont une trajectoire circulaire, ils forment une roue virtuelle avec un axe déporté mais ne créent pas de déséquilibre mais cela reste une vue de l'esprit! les poids en déséquilibre coté jante sont freinés par les poids coté moyeu.

Hello Roxaway?
A short answer in this summer period or there can be exchange!
Your work is not in vain but I do not share your starting data.
We have a spinning wheel with its dimensions, rotation speed and an evaluation of its power plus noise!
That’s all, the rest are testimonies and smoke and mirrors from Bessler especially in his writings.
I think that if the weights have a circular trajectory, they form a virtual wheel with a displaced axis but do not create an imbalance but it remains a view of the mind! the unbalanced weights on the rim side are inhibited by the weight on the hub side.

[Trev]

I think that if the weights have a circular trajectory, they form a virtual wheel with a displaced axis but do not create an imbalance but it remains a view of the mind! the unbalanced weights on the rim side are inhibited by the weight on the hub side.

Excellent description, Shadow, that is my thinking as well.

[Roxaway59]

Hi Shadow / Trev, what you are saying is correct but only when the wheels are stationary.

I'm working on another post about this and will be posting it later.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

This is a follow up to yesterdays post.

This is mainly aimed at these two designs below.