Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[Roxaway59]

As I said yesterday these designs don’t work.

The reason why I was showing them is because I believe that Bessler created what can probably be best described as a Postive Feedback Framework which would not at all be too de-similar to the kind of thing that we create when trying to make a wheel with strong overbalancing qualities.

Using one of the framework designs just shown as an example look at these two pictures.

[Roxaway59]

Both of them look similar but one has a positive feedback shape and the other has a negative feedback shape. You see the shape or framework is everything. You maintain the shape and you have positive feedback and if you lose it you have negative feedback.

Both of the non working frameworks shown above both exhibit negative hysteresis. When they are stationary they look overbalanced but they are in fact balanced. When they are turning they are no longer balanced and the negative feedback kicks in and gets stronger the faster the wheels turn.

What Besslers framework did was exhibit positive hysteresis but to look at it there would not have been anything that special to see. Its the way that it behaved that was special.

That’s why Bessler didn’t think that people would be that impressed when they saw it.

The reason why Karl didn’t have a problem appreciating what Bessler had done is because for starters the wheel would have had an overbalanced look about it. When the wheel was turned the overbalanced shape would increase making it look even more overbalanced than it did before. It would be obvious what it was doing and why it worked.

When I started my topic nine months ago I did not know how to think of Besslers prime mover but now I do.

I know how to think about it and basically what it was. The prime mover is a positive feedback framework and I feel pretty confident about that now.

What I feel we must do is concentrate on making frameworks that can hold weights far from the centre of gravity but that have an unusual quality about them. I will continue doing this in the hope that I can make a real breakthrough.

Graham

[Tarsier79]

I like this train of thought as a vague concept. I have no idea where you would start or what force you intend to use. I have seen pendulum wheels naturally OB when accelerated, but not into a positive feedback loop.

[Roxaway59]

Tarsier79 I suppose the force would have to come ultimately from gravity and a good place to start with the framework would be with the things shown on the toy page.

Graham

[spinner361]

Have you turned these with a motor yet? I think that it will do something else and I think that you may find it interesting. I am referring to the latest examples with the positive feedback loop idea.

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Roxaway,
Je pense que ce que vous nous exposez avec la boucle de rétroaction, qu'il faye intégrer deux roues tournant à vitesses différentes.
Suposition dans le cas de Bessler: une roue dont on voit le moyeu et la jante masquant le mécanisme (le moyeu ayant une interaction avec la seconde roue) et une roue interne proche de l'équilibre synchronisée avec la précédente roue et recevant des impulsions pour le déséquilibre!

Hello Roxaway,
I think what you’re exposing us with the feedback loop, that it faye integrate two wheels turning at different speeds.
Assumption in the case of Bessler: a wheel whose hub and rim are seen masking the mechanism (the hub interacting with the second wheel) and an inner wheel close to equilibrium synchronised with the previous wheel and receiving impulses for imbalance!

[Roxaway59]

Hi spinner361, yes I used the motor a lot for the experiments and usually I don't adjust the torque settings because I normally just turn the motor off. This time I found the torque setting useful for determining how the wheels were behaving but I also spent a lot of time examining the shape and movement of the framework of the mechanisms and freezing the shape at various speeds then taking away its kinetic energy to see how fast it would then keel from a stand still.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Hi Shadow, I'm not sure if the translation is good but if I understand correctly you are proposing having two wheels with the second on the hub and operating at a different speed.

I haven't experimented with this.

Can I suggest that if you make your wheels 2 metres in diameter which is what I'm trying to do now that we can more easily exchange ideas and parts on our wheels.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Also Shadow if you could keep the grid base at 10 that would help as well.

Graham

[Robinhood46]

Also Shadow if you could keep the grid base at 10 that would help as well.

Graham

I think it is a good idea that we all keep to the same grid size, for practical reasons when exchanging work.
What i don't agree with, is using the grid size of 10.
Maybe a poll to see which grid size we decide, democratically, and we all accept that choice?
I'm for the grid size which allows for the most accuracy, which i find to be 14.

[Roxaway59]

Hi Robinhood46, I picked 10 because I was thinking cm and because its easier for me to rebuild an exact replica in WM2D. If you and Shadow agree on 14 I will fall in line because I can still build things similar in WM2D.

Graham

[Robinhood46]

So it's up to Shadow to decide.
If we don't find the solution because of grid size, it will all be Shadow's fault, and 8 billion people will be able to blame it all on him.
Faire pas des betises.

[Roxaway59]

Sounds fair to me --)

[SHADOW]

Pas de souci pour 14 si c'est pour le mieux.
No worries for 14 if it’s for the best.

[Roxaway59]

Ok 14 on a 2 metre diameter wheel. That way we can easily swap ideas and build when something's positive happens.

Graham