Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[andyblues]

Roxs love your approach with the outer rim moving over to drive the imbalance ,great design, well presented , correct me if i am wrong but the outer rim will create a imbalance but it is really low compared to the energy in and out , i can not explain it any better but the from a few experiments i did on this approach creates very low returns the option after my tests went to a rim on the inside being pulled over whilst rolling on the bottom inside of the rim ,it did not work, what it did show was that the arrangement was light and would rotate for a good while if you span it up fast enough, all the tests i did on the upper ring where slower heavy went in to rocking and vibration which may be the build quality, either way it seemed very heavy to move ,could be some thing to do with speed difference both have similar difference but one wants to run the other not ,just a thought there if the outer is spinning slower and the inner faster the inner would contribute to rotation whilst the outer may do the opposite ? adding gears here looks high friction, and very high build quality, but could be done ,i wish you all the best with your work and hope i bring some help full thoughts to your work Andy

[Roxaway59]

Hi Andy, thanks for your comments. I should point out that a lot of my recent posts were ideas on the Buzzsaw but the last picture and idea was first posted by KAS a number of years ago and at the time was considered unworkable.

At the moment I am just in the middle of experimenting to see if there is a work around for the law of the levers.

All the best

Graham

[Kattla]

I've been experimenting with an idea that I think may be the answer to what we have all been looking for.

All the experimenting so far has only been done in Algodoo so I would like to do some experimenting in WM2D and then move on to a real experiment.

Its based on the idea that Bessler found a work around for the law of the levers. There really does appear to be a way to make 4 pounds rise using only 1 pound.

If going back in time on this forum has taught one thing though its to be very cautious about introducing idea's that seem novel. So I am taking it slowly and I will try more experiments to see if my theory is correct.

If it is then the idea will work on the wheel idea that I first introduced on this topic.

Graham

There really does appear to be a way to make 4 pounds rise using only 1 pound.

There is a way. More then one, actually.
Take a seesaw, and put 4 pounds on one side, and 3.5 pounds on the other.
The side with 4 pound will drop down, while the 3.5 pound side rises.
Now, put 1 pound on the 3.5 pound side, and it will sink while the 4 pound side rises. Of course, one can also use a string to raise/lift that 1 pound weight instead of lifting it directly. It is not automatic (yet) though.

I was experimenting with something simular in june, but as of late i've been too busy finding another place to live.

[Roxaway59]

Hi Kattla, I hope that finding somewhere else to live is not too stressful.

I can lift 4 pounds with 1 pound higher than if I was using a normal lever. The problem I am trying to solve is the reset.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

As I said in my last post I am experimenting with an idea that looks like it is a potential work around for the law of the lever. I have experimented with similar ideas in the past but this is done a slightly different way.

When this idea is applied to the wheel I introduced early on in the topic it over balances it nicely. The problem is resetting it when its gone half a turn.

I have experimented in Algodoo and in WM2D and all the signs are good but a way to reset needs to be found.

Graham

[Sam Peppiatt]

Wrong page------------------Sam

[Roxaway59]

I am posting this idea because I believe it could turn out to be a very important principle and it could be a major part of the prime mover. Time will tell.

My thinking on this branches into a lot of things and some of them I have mentioned on this topic but I am going to keep things as brief as I can.

A good example of the idea is a goalie in a penalty shoot out. When the penalty is taken he has to decide which way to go. If he goes the wrong way he doesn’t stand a chance of stopping and going the other way. Even when he thinks of it his inertia keeps him going in the wrong direction.

So this is what I am seriously thinking that Besslers special principal and prime mover was based on inertia.

To demonstrate why I am thinking this first of all look at a picture of an experiment in Algodoo and I will describe the key elements.

[Roxaway59]

This experiment was conducted in an effort to find a work around for the law of the levers so that I could get my original wheel design working. For anyone reading this who doesn’t know what that was please go nearer to the start of this topic and check it out and things will be clearer.

The yellow weight is 2Kg the blue weight is 450g. As far as a normal lever is concerned with the positions that the weights are in the yellow weight will lever the blue one. That is not what happens here though.

The green beams are guides and the only reason why there are copies of certain things on the beam is to keep the beam itself balanced so that its only the weights that matter. The dark beam in the centre is also a guide but this one does not move.

The two see through oblongs in the centre are also guides.

Now for the sequence of events.

When you run the Algodoo simulation the yellow weight would normally go down but because it is resting on the black guide the blue weight is able to lever it up. This effect only lasts for a very short time before the yellow weight comes into contact with the see through guide in the centre. The moment this happens the blue weight no longer has the upper hand and the yellow weight begins to resist being lifted but because of inertia it simply cannot stop straight away. So it continues to rise.

From this moment on any lifting of the yellow weight will allow a wheel like mine to work and the pendulum at 12 o’clock exists. Not only does it exist but the wheel will turn extremely well and I have proved this in both Algodoo and WM2D.

The problem is the resetting of the mechanisms after it has turned half a turn. I have not solved this yet but my feeling is that if this is the principal that Bessler used then a way will be found even if the principal does not ultimately work best on my wheel.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

As a follow up to yesterdays post I would like to show a simulation I made in Algodoo with a view to making a real experiment. This is about 40cm long and the weights have been reduced accordingly.

What it demonstrates is how strong the pendulum is compared to previous attempts.

The simulation has been simplified by just showing the main beam and weights. Just run it and the motor disengages automatically.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

One thing that I do need to make clear about the experiments and the simulations is that they only work if the weights end up in the positions shown. So for example the green weights which represent blue and yellow weights must end up in the position shown in order for it to work.

At the moment I don't know if this is possible although I do know a way of lifting the yellow weight once again on the right hand side.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Here is another demonstration of the point I am trying to make albeit in my own clumsy way.

First look at the picture of my comparisons.

[Roxaway59]

A is the original demonstration posted earlier which now includes a catch to stop it coming back down.

B is the same as A but it is missing the fixed black centre beam and the blue weight is now 40g heavier.

C is the same as A but it is missing the fixed black centre beam.

Notice that all the weights in A, B and C begin from the same starting positions.

Notice that A and B finish in exactly the same position and the only difference to enable this was that the blue weight on B had to be larger because it was using a standard lever approach.

My argument would be that this has to be something special because A ends up doing something that a normal lever can not do.

If this is not some kind of work around for the law of the lever then what can I say?

…….It will do until the work around gets here.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

I don't want to give anyone or myself any false hope but some of the simulations I have tried do seem to indicate that the weights can be reset on the right hand side of the wheel.

I will do some more simulations tomorrow to see if the way I am achieving this is still allowing the wheel to turn.

Graham

[Tarsier79]

I believe the term is "preload".... Otherwise how do you lift the weight back onto the fixed ramp? and why doesn't it go the same height the second time?...

[Roxaway59]

Hi Tarsier79, I'm not sure why preload is more appropriate than saying reset but if it is then I stand corrected.

I can put the mechanism on the right of the wheel back where it needs to be by using the same method I used to put it there in the first place. I am having problems getting consistent results with the wheel itself and I have been fighting with Algodoo all day.

I have decided to use WM2D from now on for the main simulations just so I can get some proper answers.

Graham