Relative GPE vs Absolute KE

A Bessler, gravity, free-energy free-for-all. Registered users can upload files, conduct polls, and more...

Moderator: scott

Post Reply
MrVibrating
Addict
Addict
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:19 am
Location: W3

Relative GPE vs Absolute KE

Post by MrVibrating »

Some years ago i investigated the possibilities for lifting and dropping the point of application or suspension of a weight, rather than the weight itself, finding and concluding that no work is actually done unless the weight changes height, hence terminating that particular avenue of inquiry.

Lately however, as the search closes in on any remaining stones unturned, it is clear to me that we're looking for a symmetry break between input GPE and output KE, and that such an open thermodynamic system can only arise from a reactionless acceleration between inertially isolated velocity reference frames. The means for applying such an acceleration may simply be gravity itself; the hand merely needs release the weight, for it to unilaterally accelerate away.

Hence for some time now i've been considering weight drops in an elevator car travelling up or down at constant velocity. Because gravity's an ambient acceleration, it's invariant of velocity; drop a weight whilst riding an elevator car at constant speed and it'll experience exactly 1 G, basically exhibiting the same transformation of GPE to KE relative to the lift car regardless of whether it's rising, falling or stationary.

The changes in absolute GPE and KE however are of course subject to the elevator's state of motion. When we compare the energy metrics between these two inertial reference frames, we appear to see tantalising hints of a potential symmetry break, as yet unrealised..

For example, consider an elevator travelling upwards at a constant 1 m/s. A 1 kg weight is latched to the ceiling. After say 1 second, the latch is released, dropping the weight to the elevator floor. If we make the elevator car - and thus relative drop height - about 2 m tall, and model the system right up to the moment prior to impact such that all GPE is converted to KE relative to the elevator car, then we find a surprising outcome: within the rising elevator, the relative conversion of GPE to KE is unremarkable, but from the external, ground frame of reference, the absolute GPE and KE deltas appear disparate, and it is the potential opportunity in the emergence and nature of this apparent disparity that i intend to investigate here.


Below is a simple model of that system; initially stationary, after 1 second the weight is released, the sim pausing in the final frame prior to impact, hence a full conversion of GPE to KE relative to the elevator car:

Image


Now a moving example, the elevator rising at a constant 1 m/s:

Image

rel delta GPE = -15.69 J
rel delta KE = 15.69 J

But look at the absolute figures:

abs delta GPE = -0.28 J
abs delta KE - 11.09 J

The weight's initial half-Joule of upwards KE inverted back down to zero and climbed up again as the weight's absolute vertical velocity flipped direction, from slowly rising to rapidly falling, ending up with 10.59 J, hence a total dKE of 11.09 J.

However the absolute initial and final GPEs of the weight itself have hardly changed; with a little more finesse we could tune the interaction such that the absolute net change in GPE was zero..

..and thus you see the connection to the opening context of lifting and dropping the point of application of a weight, as opposed to the weight itself; since here we appear to have pretty much that same outcome, of an absolute change in KE yet divorced from a corresponding absolute change in GPE. If no weight was actually dropped, then what converted to KE?

Of course in the round, we still lifted and dropped the weight; i'm not suggesting there's any anomaly here - a full accounting including the work done by the elevator car will obviously resolve to unity - however in the search for an exploit, this seems a potentially interesting dynamic for further investigation.

The objective would be an effective symmetry break between relative and absolute values of 'height' and 'velocity' in the GPE and KE formulas; usually, both remain relative to ground and thus the absolute FoR, due to the actions of Newton's third law. The chink in the armour, if there is one, would be the fact that GPE is invariant of constant absolute vertical velocity - that 1 J of GPE will convert to 1 J of KE relative to the elevator car, regardless of its absolute constant velocity or direction relative to ground, and hence in spite of disparity with the absolute energy metrics.

We can underline the potential disparity between the speed-invariant GPE-KE conversion onboard the moving elevator versus its absolute quadratic relationship to velocity by simply increasing the elevator speed in the next example to, say, 10 m/s:

Image

Aboard the rising elevator, Alice would report dropping 15.69 J of GPE, neatly converting to 15.69 J of KE at impact with the car floor. Bob watching from ground level however would see gravity decelerate the weight's absolute KE by 40.33 J; the same change in velocity worth different energies in their respective velocity frames of reference. Again, what is constraining the net system to unity regardless is the work done by the piston driving the elevator car, and specifically the reciprocation of forces per Newton's third law. Opening the system to a disunity requires breaking that energy equivalence between different velocity frames, ultimately by causing the inertial reference frame of the 'elevator' to diverge from that of the ground / absolute frame, by exploiting an effective circumvention of N3.. somehow, courtesy of gravity.

Don't expect any whirlwind developments here, i'm just kicking this out there half-baked to try crystalise my thoughts on the matter; it's a meditation on a potential route to a solution - the potential seed of an exploit - not necessarily the solution itself.

For a final thought however: "I don't want to go into the details here of how suddenly the excess weight is caused to rise. You can't comprehend these matters, or see how true craftsmanship can rise above innate lowly tendencies (as does a weight above the point of application of a lever)".
Attachments
elevator_drop.wm2d
(13.59 KiB) Downloaded 22 times
User avatar
Tarsier79
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5169
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:17 am
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: Relative GPE vs Absolute KE

Post by Tarsier79 »

Absolute vs relative GPE.... Something I have tried to take advantage of in the past without success. I wasn't using gpe vs KE though.

Good luck.
MrVibrating
Addict
Addict
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:19 am
Location: W3

Re: Relative GPE vs Absolute KE

Post by MrVibrating »

Here it is inverted, with the elevator descending at constant rate instead of rising - arguably the more interesting direction:

Image

..15.69 J of GPE in the moving frame converting to a 71.7 J KE rise in the absolute frame.

Bob, on the ground, basically sees 4.5x more energy than Alice in the elevator. However, Bob's seeing the absolute energies, whilst Alice can't see her absolute height or velocity from inside the elevator car, these having no effect on her measurements.

So the velocity FoRs are still energy-equivalent, again, due to the reciprocal nature of the forces being applied to the piston driving the elevator. Turning a velocity delta into free energy gradient still requires beating N3, so not sure where i'm going with this.. As i say, just trying to get a handle on the dynamics more than anything else..
Attachments
inv_elevator_drop.wm2d
(13.6 KiB) Downloaded 19 times
Last edited by MrVibrating on Tue Oct 08, 2024 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
johannesbender
Addict
Addict
Posts: 2438
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:29 pm
Location: not important

Re: Relative GPE vs Absolute KE

Post by johannesbender »

Billy out on planet farfaraway calculates humans on earth moving at a speed of 10000km/s through space , human on earth calculates himself being stationary , does that mean there is extra energy ? imo , no , a one person excludes certain parts of a calculation that someone else includes because of being aware of more factors only means imo person A and B are not calculating the same .
Its all relative.
User avatar
Fletcher
Addict
Addict
Posts: 8507
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:03 am
Location: NZ

Re: Relative GPE vs Absolute KE

Post by Fletcher »

MrVibrating wrote:
... Turning a velocity delta into free energy gradient still requires beating N3, so not sure where i'm going with this..

As i say, just trying to get a handle on the dynamics more than anything else..
Good luck with the investigation and the hypothesis Mr V ..

My 2 cents on your train of thought fwiw ..

It occurs to me that FOR always makes a numerical difference, but perhaps not a practical difference i.e. contextual ..

As jb said, Billy sees and measures somethings different entirely from your FOR viewing point ..

Here's how I define my context ..

Momentum and Kinetic Energy are a duopoly of sorts - 2 sides to the same coin - both are fundamental and we can argue about which is more fundamental than the other but nothing would be served in that argument - I tend to think in terms of momentum being the more fundamental of the two, mainly for expediency reasons - momentum can be linear or rotational and both are separate and conserved - linear being a vector of magnitude and direction - while KE can also be linear or rotational ( or both ) and are also conserved under the Conservation Laws etc ..

However Energy ( including KE ) is said to be a scalar quantity ( not strictly a vector except in certain situations ) only having magnitude iinm ..

In Physics Energy is described as the Capacity to do Work i.e. under the Equivalence Principle a force x displacement results in Work Done, in Joules, which is equivalent to the KE gained etc, also in Joules .. iinm in mechanical interactions this 'equivalence' has never been disproved ..

If we keep it simple and think in the Mechanical Physics realm then it would appear to me that if an object of mass acquires a velocity in one direction ( from an acceleration of choice ) then it acquires both a linear momentum and a linear KE at the same time - thus, in this case, both being 'vectors' for all intents and purposes ..

The contextual logic being that since both Momentum and Energy are conserved ( re. Laws ) then an object subject to 'g' only will acquire both linear NET momentum, and 'linear' NET KE .. this is FOR dependent ..

However, the acid test imo is relating this 'NET' back to the 'Equivalence Principle', and 'Capacity to do Work' - can the object dropping in 'g' environment do any more of any less " Work = force x distance " when viewed from a different FOR ..

I believe the answer is a resounding NO ! - if your sims show any surplus of NET KE (vector ) in one FOR over another then that must be put to 'Work' ( move something else over a distance ( J's ) ) to test the hypothesis reliability and repeatability in different FOR's ..

** imo, if your sim shows an advantage in one FOR than another then it is time to construct a real-world test as a proof or thought experiment to examine the hypothesis/theory further ..

Best -f
Post Reply