Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[Roxaway59]

Ok so I think JP you and I agree as to why it lifts and you are saying that the bit extra it moves is due to a tiny overlap?

Graham

[johannesbender]

Depends on which sim you talk about , i refer to the recreated last sim of Fletcher , the lever would move , but it wont gain GPE.

[Roxaway59]

JP I obviously need to check this out more thoroughly.

I respect both you and Fletcher and I realise that at times I can be a bit of a knuckle head.

However the point that I am trying to make is that the weight on the left will go up even when it is fully resting on the green and black supports and it ends up making the mechanism top heavy. Forget about a little loss of GPE for a second (I will check that out properly) The weight has gone up instead of down and the reason it does it is by dropping a tiny amount in relation to the lever.

If it turns out that I am completely wrong then I will of course admit my mistake but I am not seeing anything at the moment to show that I am.

Remember that my wheel needs the levers to be top heavy on the left and level on the right. If I am correct then its a question of can the levers be reset on the right given the tiny drop of that left hand weight on the lever.

Graham

[Fletcher]

Mornin Rox and jb ..

Graham .. I think jb did a pretty good job of giving a blow by blow description of what was happening in my sim replication ( thx jb ) - fwiw the accuracy I set it to was 2,000 fps with an integration error of 0.035 cm - all objects involved in the pivoted lever arrangement were pre-set to the zero horizontal x-axis ( i.e. had zero y-axis height at start ) - then as jb said, on running the sim the lhs weight falls a little ( loses GPE ) until it makes firm contact with the guides etc - the integration setting determines how deep each will penetrate the other - when at full allowable penetration depth the red contact forces will stop showing 'bouncing/flickering ( determined by elasticity setting )' and thereafter be constant/full - this means the lever itself will slightly rotate CW from temporary imbalance and its fixed rhs weight lose some GPE as noted ..

** Note that the original sim you supplied is a very small scale - the lever being only 16 cm long by 1.6 cm high - that's why I chose to use a higher accuracy setting than I usually use with larger models ( proportionality ) - also I use SI units so that rotations are in degrees etc ..

...............

Ok, here is the sim reworked for your bottom support clearance note Graham - to do that I had to lift the lhs weight above the zero line so that it had a starting height of 0.005 cm ( had some GPE ) - and I reduced the integrator error down from 0.035 cm to 0.01 cm ..

...............

Here is my generic suggestions on WM sims for investigating OU/PM mechanics ..

1. Always measure the System NET GPE at start for a gravity only system - after running the sim look for a System NET GPE increase or decrease ? - usually there will always be a Net decrease which also usually translates to an equivalent gain in System KE ( with no frictions etc ) i.e. the zero sum game we talk about so much ..

2. If there is a System NET increase in GPE AND/OR System KE then take a closer look at the accuracy and integrator error setting ( always use accurate Kutta-Merson setting ) - increase the accuracy and decrease the integrator error allowances to "stress test" the sim across a range of settings to see if the effect is lasting and robust ..

3. IF there is a System NET GAIN in GPE / or NET KE then examine the sim for objects being placed too closely together i.e. beyond integrator error/tolerances because for the sim to maintain integrity from one frame to the next it will "spit-out" the objects to allowable/acceptable tolerances - this will automatically inject either/or a System NET increase in GPE and/or KE - which is entirely an artifact of the coding and programing of the kinematic sim leading to errant and false results i.e. not a good and reliable approximation of expected real-world behaviour and results .. the deeper the penetration the more violent the expulsion and KE GAIN ( that was why I showed in 1 sim 3 side-by-side setups with greater and greater fixed guide overlap i.e.1. to graphically show how violent the reaction could be and how it could lead to fictitious gains in System GPE and KE i.e.2. rotate a horizontal lever to vertical/top heavy etc ) ..

.................



.................

[Roxaway59]

Hi Fletcher thanks for taking the time to do that.

There are some things that look similar to mine and I will have to take a closer look at it tomorrow and I will probably end up doing some working out myself but I will have to do it my own way.

Graham

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Graham,
Pour limiter le chevauchement sous Algodoo, je met une texture pour les contacts en charges.
Ex: je met une texture pierre pour les chemins de roulements avec un galet en acier!

Good morning, Graham,
To limit the overlap under Algodoo, I put a texture for contacts in loads.
Ex: I put a stone texture for the bearing ramps with a steel roller!

[Roxaway59]

Hi Shadow yes I tried something similar but most of the time putting the accuracy high works well too.

There's something that I would like you to verify with me in Algodoo if you would.

I will be posting it soon along with instructions.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Its ok Shadow after doing a lot of simulations and some math's I realised that what I was wanting you to recreate wouldn't prove anything.

I've got some working out to do in WM2D.

Graham

[Sam Peppiatt]

Graham,
It all looks more like a giant exercise in computer simulations, with little if any thing to do with Bessler or his wheel. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just draw something?

What good is it; if you can't even get the computer to work-----------------Sam

[Roxaway59]

Sam I don't blame anyone for refusing to use simulators. Its always better to build the real thing if you have the time and money. Personally I have very little of either of those and I prefer to get an indication from the simulators first before building something.

Simulators are a good tool if they are used wisely and unfortunately I have made mistakes using them on a number of occasions. You mentioned drawing well Algodoo is really good for making diagrams even if you don't use it as a simulator.

Recently I used Algodoo to calculate GPE of weights and that gave useful information.

I suppose its just down to personal choice but I can't seem to get by without them because they are useful if care is taken.

Graham

[Fletcher]

Well said Rox ..

And some people who don't use them say why would a kinematic simulator program show OU/PM ? - reasoning it's programmed on Newton's Laws and the Conservation Laws, so can't possibly show a Net increase in GPE or KE, when only enabled by gravity !

Yet others find an errant energy gain in a sim and then bet the farm that "the effect" will be robust and not disappear in a puff of smoke across a range of sensitivity analysis, without actually pushing "the effect" to its simulation limits to find out - then they launch off on a build trying to replicate the "special" sim that got the "unusual" result, spending time, energy, and money ..

.........

Others, use it as a tool, and have a plan to work with it, and to ultimately uncover a route to OU/PM, Bessler style ..

1. Probably, there must be a mechanical Workaround to the Law of Levers ( LOLs ), that allows continual reset without depleting Net GPE, and the accumulation of wheel momentum, once started ..

2. Possibly, a positive feedback-loop exists that turns a fairly ordinary lever-weight based system tuned to interact periodically with a Prime Mover element into a self-moving wheel ..

Keep at it Graham ..

[daxwc]

I still think ultimately it is stealing rotational energy off the earth. Sort of like if Skylab kept throwing out fishing line to earth; hooking and releasing. (yes I know Skylab is going much faster than earth right now; its just a visual)

I am probably wrong but that is the way I see it.

Something with the power to latch onto Earth's rotational inertia but in a controlled, compact design. These would counterbalance Earth's spin and capture a tiny fraction of that energy.

[Sam Peppiatt]

Graham,
I guess you know what you are doing. Maybe the computer simulations are important to figuring it out-------------Sam

[Fletcher]

I still think ultimately it is stealing rotational energy off the earth.

Agreed dax .. or as I prefer to visualize it, a minuscule continuous transfer of rotational momentum from the earth's rotation ( no noticeable loss ) and wobble to the wheel as rotation and momentum gain, as they interact in their local FOR ..

And even if the method is not yet known the Physics in theory is firmly rooted within the bounds of the Conservation Laws ..

[Roxaway59]

Its just a thought Fletcher but if its true that Besslers wheel some how stole energy from the earths rotation then shouldn't all the simulations we do have those conditions in the simulation as standard?

Graham