Terragravitic Induction

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Senax
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Re: Terragravitic Induction

Post by Senax »

Fletcher wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:38 pm For those new to the Brachistochrone Problem it has been discussed here and elsewhere for years.

It is not much of a mystery and is logical from the experimental evidence, but the math is daunting for most.

The thing that Frank seems to shy away from in these discussions is this inescapable fact. Gravity is conservative. As Galileo discovered by experimentation in the 1600's any ball or sphere allowed to roll down any shaped incline will have the exact same velocity at the same vertical height lost. Altho the time taken to arrive at that height will vary on shape of incline.

Having said that whilst a near vertical drop will have the greatest vertical acceleration component it then has to change course and travel across to the finish height - this takes time.

Given a frictionless thought experiment THEY ALL ARRIVE WITH THE SAME VELOCITY - just some get there quicker than others .. and THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME KINETIC ENERGY AND POTENTIAL ENERGY.

Thank you Galileo for discerning this ..
No, I agree 100%, GRAVITY IS CONSERVATIVE.
That is why I've described the action of gravity as being that of a catalyst.
A catalyst is not used up in a chemical reaction and gravity is not used up in Bessler's wheel
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Re: Terragravitic Induction

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No, I agree 100%, GRAVITY IS CONSERVATIVE.
That is why I've described the action of gravity as being that of a catalyst.
A catalyst is not used up in a chemical reaction and gravity is not used up in Bessler's wheel
Thought Bubble .. following the metaphor of gravity being a catalyst, which is not depleted, but does aid a reaction to proceed with more efficiency - then a mass in the influence of this catalyst will have a weight force ( f = m a .. fwt = m 'g' ), each internal weight torquing about the runners axle - for a runner to quickly accelerate ( gain speed and momentum, and RKE ) and then maintain a steady rpm thereafter, there must be a substantial excess-of-torque ( torque asymmetry ) on the down-going side of the wheel ( sustained imbalance thru shifting of weights ) - thus, viewing gravity is a non-depleted catalyst, then it is also not an energy source - energy is the capacity to do Work - and altho it can't be created nor destroyed it can thru the process of transformation from one form to another enter a system, do mechanical Work via the transforming process, and then exit the system ( flow or pass thru the runner ) .. however, in order for a runner to sustain asymmetric torque conditions, and accepting that gravity is the always ambient conservative catalyst/enabler of a runner, then the runners weights must have their GPE restored for a lesser energy cost than simple displacing weights and conservative gravity's torque as a result of can provide - because for any vertical height lost by a weight ( GPE = mgh in Joules ), regardless of path or slope taken ( the Brachistochrone examples ), it transforms its previously reset Potential Energy lost into Kinetic Energy ( m 1/5 v^2 in Joules ) of the exact same amount ( n.b. not considering normal system energy losses to frictions etc ) ..

** Frank, I would say viewing gravity as an ambient catalyst is a fairly good analogy - it doesn't create the sustained imbalance of a runner because it is conservative ( can't give more KE than GPE lost ), therefore another inflow source of energy/pseudo energy into the runner ultimately restores the internal weights GPE height reset, and results in an excess of wheel momentum as the wheel accelerates and "gains" - imo ..
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Re: Terragravitic Induction

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Fletcher wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 9:18 pm
No, I agree 100%, GRAVITY IS CONSERVATIVE.
That is why I've described the action of gravity as being that of a catalyst.
A catalyst is not used up in a chemical reaction and gravity is not used up in Bessler's wheel
Thought Bubble .. following the metaphor of gravity being a catalyst, which is not depleted, but does aid a reaction to proceed with more efficiency - then a mass in the influence of this catalyst will have a weight force ( f = m a .. fwt = m 'g' ), each internal weight torquing about the runners axle - for a runner to quickly accelerate ( gain speed and momentum, and RKE ) and then maintain a steady rpm thereafter, there must be a substantial excess-of-torque ( torque asymmetry ) on the down-going side of the wheel ( sustained imbalance thru shifting of weights ) - thus, viewing gravity is a non-depleted catalyst, then it is also not an energy source - energy is the capacity to do Work - and altho it can't be created nor destroyed it can thru the process of transformation from one form to another enter a system, do mechanical Work via the transforming process, and then exit the system ( flow or pass thru the runner ) .. however, in order for a runner to sustain asymmetric torque conditions, and accepting that gravity is the always ambient conservative catalyst/enabler of a runner, then the runners weights must have their GPE restored for a lesser energy cost than simple displacing weights and conservative gravity's torque as a result of can provide - because for any vertical height lost by a weight ( GPE = mgh in Joules ), regardless of path or slope taken ( the Brachistochrone examples ), it transforms its previously reset Potential Energy lost into Kinetic Energy ( m 1/5 v^2 in Joules ) of the exact same amount ( n.b. not considering normal system energy losses to frictions etc ) ..

** Frank, I would say viewing gravity as an ambient catalyst is a fairly good analogy - it doesn't create the sustained imbalance of a runner because it is conservative ( can't give more KE than GPE lost ), therefore another inflow source of energy/pseudo energy into the runner ultimately restores the internal weights GPE height reset, and results in an excess of wheel momentum as the wheel accelerates and "gains" - imo ..

Spot on.
I think I can see what that source of energy can be.
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Re: Terragravitic Induction

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Yes, for a true mechanical PMM as B. described it, elimination suggests to me that the Earths seasonal wobble and rotation about the Sun is the primal source of Momentum input to his runners, downstream transforming into a runners Momentum gain and RKE/ability to do Work, imo ..
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Re: Terragravitic Induction

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Gravity is NOT a conservative force. MMW
JMHO Based on evidence. 😉
. I can assure the reader that there is something special behind the stork's bills.
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Re: Terragravitic Induction

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JS, what evidence are you referring to?
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Re: Terragravitic Induction

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Tarsier79 wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 2:48 am JS, what evidence are you referring to?
Good question.
I too would like to see the evidence. :)
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Re: Terragravitic Induction

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Hi Senax / Fletcher, I’ve been side tracked for a couple of weeks by DIY work that I have to do and can no longer put off but I have been following your posts.

I have to admit to having to eat some humble pie because I am guilty of saying a few times on my topic that gravity must not be a conservative force. This really is a typical layman's way of thinking or looking at the problem and its a bit like always blaming the butler when there is a murder.

I still say that when Besslers wheel is rediscovered the public will say that it runs off gravity but the both of you are right in my opinion thinking of it as a catalyst.

It isn’t acceptable in science to use the wrong language or to look at a force the wrong way and I must correct myself.

If I was to attach a rope to my waist and then tied the other end to the back of a bus there would be a connection between me and the bus. When the bus moves off it is going to pull me along with it and it has to use some of its energy in order to pull me along. What I have been doing is attributing the energy source to the rope instead of the bus. The rope is just a connector connecting me to the bus and it is vital because without it the bus can not transfer its energy to me and pull me along.

In effect gravity is the rope that is enabling the transference of potential energy and orbital energy from one place to another but it does not itself possess energy directly.

On our planet there are a number of potential energy sources within reach but tapping into those with a small scale device is the problem we face. We get energy from the moons potential energy but that only acts upon large systems like the oceans which are in effect carrying out a continuous sling shot around the moon slowly taking away its energy. Not that this isn’t a great viable form of continuous energy. It is but its not as convenient as Besslers wheel.

There is a massive amount of energy in the earths rotation but once again tapping into that is the problem.

If I think along these lines it usually isn’t too long before Besslers words come back to me and the problem is he doesn’t make it sound like he was stealing potential energy from anywhere.

Graham
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Re: Terragravitic Induction

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Hi Graham .. well summed up .. the trick, once you have arrived at the deeper understanding, is to keep hold of that perspective and not lapse - not always easy .. solving the enigma of B's. runners is an exercise in logic imo - for that you have to be logical, and build your house on the facts of science ( no matter how hard they are to swallow, or learn, or see their relevance, from time to time ) - that does not mean there is no room for intuition - intuition is your subconscious connecting the facts .. imo ..
If I think along these lines it usually isn’t too long before Besslers words come back to me and the problem is he doesn’t make it sound like he was stealing potential energy from anywhere.
Put yourself in B's. shoes - Newton's Laws had been published but B. makes no mention of them - he does use the English words of momentum and force ( in MT ), so he was familiar with these terms to use them occasionally - the circles he moved in would have been familiar with them to some degree or another .. but he did not have the classical physics framework ( conservation Laws based on Newton's second f = ma , kinetic energy etc) and Work Energy Theorem to fill in the picture as we do - tho he did know about mechanical advantage because all machines used it in some way or another and it could be and was calculated - so he also would have been aware that the Law of Levers underpinned these machines and since that was just a ratio of WD/Energy ( force x distance ) IN = WD/Energy Out , which effectively in that context is a rock solid proof of Work Energy symmetry and LOL's symmetry ( as it generally stands ) ..

But, he had an intuition based on MUCH lesser framework and facts available in his time, that enabled him to imagine a mechanical workaround to the problem of keeping his wheels condition net positive torque - this intuition would have been based on institutional learning of the time, and his own personal disappointments with non-runners i.e. practical experience and analysis of why there was no excess torque, and what skills he had acquired in his journey to a runner - this all happened in just 10 short years - I place a lot of weight on the skills he acquired - and the one that sets him apart imo from others was his skills in horology ( repairing time pieces ) - that is a specific area of expertise and not common knowledge ..

Somewhere amongst those influences is a deductible logical path to a mechanical runner in a gravity field, that does develop and maintain net excess torque, where weights are 'assisted' via a prime mover feedback to the OOB system to have their PE restored, with left over energy input to output downstream as Work ..

If in any doubt of that look at MT's 44 and 48 - clearly on their own they can not have a net excess-torque to become runners - something mechanical was interacting with these basic OOB systems of weights translocating sideways, producing torque, and giving the background wheel momentum, whose momentum was then converted into energy and used to re-lift the weights sequentially to the tipping point again i.e. fully restore their operating GPE in a runner ..

Best ..
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Re: Terragravitic Induction

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Hi Fletcher

Not so much MT44/48, but others like MT9/10, where Bessler infers something positive: The easiest way to make these move is with an intermittent pulse to lift the weights, creating an OB (even if it doesn't look like a standard OB in some cases.

My Question, and I suspect the answer is no: Can an OB wheel be made to work with two constant(and assumably conservative) forces? IE, what if we had gravity pushing down, and another instance of a gravity equivalent force pushing sideways. For this thought experiment, The two forces don't have to act on the same weights...IE, if gravity works on weight A, "horizontal gravity" can operate on weight B.

So I guess the question, Can two diferent (even imaginary) or conservative forces be used to create a PM.
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Re: Terragravitic Induction

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So I guess the question, Can two different (even imaginary) or conservative forces be used to create a PM.
Hi T .. imo 2 in-situ "always acting" conservative forces ( an example would be gravity and magnetism ) wouldn't work because they can't be switched on or off, so no advantage imo .. this does not include an air current ( air has mass ) blowing thru the wheel for example where the weights could redirect the force of the air flow on contact into lift or rotation ( the classic fake PM with the hair dryer in the sidelines ) ..

Can 2 different forces create PM ?

One could be conservative like gravity or magnetism ( that would be a classic OOB non-runner ) - the other would have to be able to be turned on or off or have its direction changed intermittently would be my guess - that would be your "pulse" example applied to MT's 9 / 10, and my MT's 44 / 48 etc ..
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Re: Terragravitic Induction

Post by Tarsier79 »

I completely agree with your logic. It makes complete sense two conservative and constant forces can't produce a PM, as one would keep needing to overcome the other, then vice versa.

However, I vaguely recall a sim (and I could be mistaken) of a (constant?) cross force in a gravity wheel causing it to roll.
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Re: Terragravitic Induction

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Can you recall anymore detail - like who built the sim, and when thereabouts etc ? - maybe what the extra force was that caused it to roll ( along a flat surface I guess you mean ) ?

For instance my outside real wheel frame in my garden that I attached paddles ( plastic plates ) to is turning away merrily today with a nice gentle breeze - it's just a wind turbine .. it works because of the air pressure differentials - beneath the axle and closer to the ground the air is slowed somewhat from terrain interference ( vortices and drag ) - above axle the air is at full uninterrupted velocity - this creates a differential velocity top and bottom of the wheel and there is an excess torque topside of the wheel - will turn in either direction and even in cross winds, as long as it is not exactly at right angles ..
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Re: Terragravitic Induction

Post by Tarsier79 »

Sorry, all heresay from my extremely bad memory.

No, sorry, I used roll incorrectly. It was turning. It wasn't recent, and I believe it was in WM2D. I feel like it would have been made by you, as others might not have capability to add another force. I feel like the force was just a linear force pushing across on the weights.

Again, don't look too hard. I am probably mistaken.
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Re: Terragravitic Induction

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Deux forces conservatrices ont peu de chance d'être efficace ensemble, c'est l'ENSEMBLE qui pose problème.
L'une et l'autre sont indépendantes, elles ne se rencontrent que pendant un court instant.
C'est ce que RH46 appelle la différence fondamentale. Cette rencontre des deux systèmes ne se produit pas toujours au même moment, il y a une part d'aléatoire, ce qui rend plausible la suite, une sorte de chaos.
Autre chose dans l'absolu le magnétisme est conservateur, c'est le cas aujourd'hui. J'ai rencontré il y a maintenant quelques dizaines d'années, une personne qui avait mis au point un filtre magnétique... Hélas pour des raisons insolites, le secret c'est perdu...
De toutes façons B n'avait pas accès à des aimants suffisamment puissant.

Two conservative forces are unlikely to be effective together; it's the ENSEMBLE that's the problem.
Both are independent, and only meet for a short time.
This is what RH46 calls the fundamental difference. This meeting of the two systems doesn't always happen at the same moment, there's an element of randomness, which makes the rest plausible, a kind of chaos.
In absolute terms, magnetism is conservative, and that's the case today. A few decades ago, I met someone who had developed a magnetic filter... Alas, for some strange reason, the secret was lost...
Anyway, B didn't have access to sufficiently powerful magnets.
Not everything I present is functional, but a surprise can't be completely ruled out.Greetings.
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