Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[johannesbender]

Roxaway , To be honest i don't have a negative or a positive opinion on the results of combining different "non runners" , its like trying to answer on the unknown for me especially since not all cases might be good or bad , i might be shown a few examples and form a negative opinion on the idea , but out of the blue comes a combination that happens to do something quite good - then what would i say ..

[Roxaway59]

JB I do think that proper conclusions can be drawn when it comes to combining different ideas. I just don't know how to formulate it yet.

The examples to the left of the wheel show its actions at different angles.

This idea is a simplification of the lever idea I showed recently. The fixed ramp is now missing but the other ram is the container containing the weight.

From the position shown the mechanisms are about to overbalance the wheel in an anticlockwise direction.

The tracer shows the path that the weights take.

Notice that gravity is able to compress the spring on the left and as the weight reaches around 6 o'clock the spring is able lift the weights GPE.

This single crossbar can only provide positive torque for a quarter of a turn.

Is it possible to take a simple idea like this and add another simple idea that complements this one so that together they become stronger enabling each one in effect to be able to turn more than a quarter of a turn?

Graham

[Roxaway59]

As an experiment engage the motor on the simulation and run it.

You will see that the path the weights take is perfect for an overbalanced wheel.

If it was possible to add a mechanism that evened out the negative imbalance then this simple idea would turn into a runner.

Graham

[thx4]

J'ai revu le MT15, les tiges fines les plus longues ne reposent sur rien, c'est les petites masses de la roue intérieur (mt13) entre 7h et 6 h qui remonter les tiges fines, donc rien à voir avec le MT 135.
Par ce simple biais, il semble être très positif dans le sens de rotation choisi. Donc les poids du mt13 interne doivent être plus lourd, que ceux des tiges.
Le passage des cordelettes (important) n'est pas très clair...

I've seen the MT15 again: the longest fine rods don't rest on anything, it's the small masses of the inner wheel (mt13) between 7 and 6 o'clock that wind up the fine rods, so it's nothing like the MT 135.
By this simple means, it seems to be very positive in the chosen direction of rotation. So the weights of the internal mt13 must be heavier than those of the rods.
The passage of the cords (important) is not very clear...

[johannesbender]

JB I do think that proper conclusions can be drawn when it comes to combining different ideas. I just don't know how to formulate it yet.

The examples to the left of the wheel show its actions at different angles.

This idea is a simplification of the lever idea I showed recently. The fixed ramp is now missing but the other ram is the container containing the weight.

From the position shown the mechanisms are about to overbalance the wheel in an anticlockwise direction.

The tracer shows the path that the weights take.

Notice that gravity is able to compress the spring on the left and as the weight reaches around 6 o'clock the spring is able lift the weights GPE.

This single crossbar can only provide positive torque for a quarter of a turn.

Is it possible to take a simple idea like this and add another simple idea that complements this one so that together they become stronger enabling each one in effect to be able to turn more than a quarter of a turn?

Graham

As an experiment engage the motor on the simulation and run it.

You will see that the path the weights take is perfect for an overbalanced wheel.

If it was possible to add a mechanism that evened out the negative imbalance then this simple idea would turn into a runner.

Graham

I see , it is quite the clever and simplistic design , and i also see the mass moves out to the left and in on the right .
If you found a mechanism that could fairly reduce counter torque , yes it would help a whole bunch , i would like to mention CF can shoot a weight back out at the apex of 12.

[Roxaway59]

Its been nearly a year since I joined the forum and I did so a few days after my birthday which is today.

At the time I didn't know if I was doing the right thing but now a year later I am certain that it was.

I have learned a lot since being here and I feel that progress has been made towards understanding the nature of Besslers wheel just not the finer details of how it managed to create and maintain the necessary form that the internal structure took.

As I have said before I will not give up looking for the answers and I know that others wont either.

All the best.

Graham

[justsomeone]

Well a very happy birthday to you !!! I hope you had a great day.

[Roxaway59]

Hi justsomeone, thanks I'm not a big drinker but I do like Jack Daniels so I had a few of those.

For me it was a reminder that I have been on the forum for a year and I was reflecting on some of the realizations that have been made that to me are important. How other people view this past year may be very different of course.

Another thing that I was thinking of is how best to move forward. There are a number of real experiments that I never got around to doing for one reason or another and apart from doing those I want to set up a permanent experimental wheel so that I am not just experimenting with simulators.

I have a lot of DIY to do over this next year so I will be cutting wood to make this wheel for experimenting as I go.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Hi Fletcher, here is the sim I was talking about.

Maybe the speed increase is due to the weights shifting but I am not sure.

I think in my explanation I said the right side was hanging but actually its the left.

Graham

[Fletcher]

Hi Graham .. see reworked sim in attachments - it is set to 1000 fps but you can increase it back to 10,000 if you want - note I changed out your polygon stops for regular squares ( polygons seem more prone to spitting object apart with overlap adding KE - avoid polygons if you can ) - and added an Output for Total System KE beneath time - and Outputs for rope tensions etc - follow the plots of wheel velocity and System KE to see they are both decreasing ( that is the trend ) - note that they spike when the sphere's contact the stops ( added contact force vectors ) - this indicates that because elasticities are normal at 0.5 for ll bodies every time there is a contact some energy is lost to simulated heat, sound, vibration, deformation etc which must reduce the System KE/velocity total for conservation of energy etc ..

I also suggest that you swap out the ropes for either a rod, or a pulley, or a dampened spring element - and compare against the rope sim when you make these types of sim ( the swap-it-out check ) ..

Best -f

[Roxaway59]

Hi Fletcher I forgot to say thanks for taking the time to do that.

I actually did a lot of these types of things with various layouts. In Algodoo I usually avoided ropes but despite that some of them still went over unity and I never had a clue why.

I'm going over some old idea's at the moment trying to take a fresh look at them.

I have also bit the bullet and started to look at some of the physics from a mathematical point of view. My progress is slow but I am hoping it will help me to look at the problem in a different way.

Cheers

Graham

[Kattla]

Not exactly as though I'm a hired lawyer writing a patent application and making sure all the legal t's and i's are crossed and dotted - more like his teenage pimple-faced physics nerd son helping him by keep the description on point, cogently covering all the bases for the different stages and actions of the runner, and above all else keeping the description within the known Laws of Classical Physics and the Conservation Laws i.e. the runners feet stay firmly on the ground and in the land of reality where all other machines on earth dwell ..

.............

Have a chuckle at these when we need a break and some perspective ..

This might be a little bit out of topic, but what would be the best way if discovering Besslers secrets?
Keep quiet , make working model + drawing and apply for a patent, then wait until approved or denied?

Or go bragging about it , sharing it with everyone in this public forum? Then learn someone else patented it
and earned a decent amount of money on it.

[John Collins]

As some will know I wouldn’t recommend anyone to take out a patent on Bessler’s wheel for several reasons. It’s expensive, and you have to defend it against other patents and your patent can always be improved upon. For me the best option is to forget the patent route and publish as widely as possible. No one else can claim the design as their own and patent it once it’s in the public domain. Attach your name to the video or drawings and fame and fortune will find you. A friend of mine who used to be a Besslerite spends tens of thousands of pounds each year defending his patents and he has always said patents aren’t for individual patentees. It’s less worrying if you don’t have one and that’s what I will do when I discover the solution!

JC

[Kattla]

As some will know I wouldn’t recommend anyone to take out a patent on Bessler’s wheel for several reasons. It’s expensive, and you have to defend it against other patents and your patent can always be improved upon. For me the best option is to forget the patent route and publish as widely as possible. No one else can claim the design as their own and patent it once it’s in the public domain. Attach your name to the video or drawings and fame and fortune will find you. A friend of mine who used to be a Besslerite spends tens of thousands of pounds each year defending his patents and he has always said patents aren’t for individual patentees. It’s less worrying if you don’t have one and that’s what I will do when I discover the solution!

JC

Thanks John.

And yes, i do like the idea of public domain for it , since that would make me free to find the next "impossible" thing to explore. Not sure what that would be yet though. Could wish for a home of my own too since renting is getting quite expensive these days. As long as i have a job i can manage though. Many things to consider.

Heidi.

[Tarsier79]

Hi Heidi

There are many options. Some people (not me) believe wholeheartedly that patent is the best way. Open source is the best if you want "the secret" out, but not sure if that would financially benefit you. Crowd funding is another way to do it. I have seen fraudsters raise hundreds of thousands of dollars from investors. There is no reason you couldn't do the same with a true PM design.

My personal choice would be to stay out of the public eye and seek suitable investors, but my plan would go to the members of "The Giving Pledge" first. Once people have so much money they don't need more, and have pledged to donate 90% of their wealth to charities, I feel like they are the type of people that will help someone having a go, and there are over 200 of them to choose from.

The first thing though, is to make sure you have physical proof before deciding. So worrying about the next step, while it is a very human step, is unnecessary till you find "it".

Good luck.