Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

[daxwc]

Ok I will bite; what are ( soft pawls )?


I am wondering why you used such a short armed swingers? Was there a limiting reason? My objective would have been to get the strongest throw in the swingers at 3PM at peak torque. Which I think would depend on arm length... maybe.

Fletcher: n.b. the pendulum ( contrary to what your Chatbot says can not swing higher, it can only swing faster - and if the fly-wheel increases in average rpm then the pendulum must be swinging thru bottom dead center with greater and greater velocity as rpm increases )

Not sure it said that. Sounds like something I would say but you make sense it is tied to the crank .


“2. Amplitude and Energy: For small swings (which may occur in the described system), the amplitude doesn’t change the period.”
I think the AI was referring to your swingers not the pendulum. Or why can’t the swingers swing higher each time? Which is part of the problem because as they swing they become weightless (partly) to the wheel till it gets locked in by the ratchet.

[daxwc]

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Somebody needs to do a SIM of how a dropping pivot affects a pendulum. ( see animation of gravity driven sim )

I mean more along the lines of a fixed weight one side and a swinging weight the other and impulse to the wheel where we could see the energy transfer. I don’t think Algodoo give us the information and I am to impatient to learn either properly 8)

I know my problem ;)))

[Fletcher]

Ok I will bite; what are ( soft pawls )? There are many different types and designs of mechanical pawls and ratchets - the objective is to catch the swinger at top of climb and arrest its swing until release at or near vertical ready to go again - some are just small roller bearings inside a casing that friction lock - ateotd it is an engineering issue - B. in MT51 used a common recognized method, altho I think there are more efficient methods available today with less losses and more precise ..


I am wondering why you used such a short armed swingers? Was there a limiting reason? My objective would have been to get the strongest throw in the swingers at 3PM at peak torque. Which I think would depend on arm length... maybe. No particular reason - except the length of the swinger has imo no bearing on how high it will swing ( gain GPE ) and how much torque it will create - a long shafted swinger and a short shafted swinger will gain the same height ( GPE & torque ), all else being equal, but their shafts will be at different angles - a longer one has more flexibility to swing high if and when needed to, say at greater rpms - while perhaps you can pack more in on the same plane with short ones - horses for courses ..

Fletcher: n.b. the pendulum ( contrary to what your Chatbot says can not swing higher, it can only swing faster - and if the fly-wheel increases in average rpm then the pendulum must be swinging thru bottom dead center with greater and greater velocity as rpm increases )

Not sure it said that. Sounds like something I would say but you make sense, it is tied to the crank . Yes, a limited / constrained range of movement to the external pendulum i.e. height it can swing up to .. therefore if the total arrangement gains in Momentum as it increases rpm the external pen must be swinging faster and faster thru bdc i.e. the half cycle time gets quicker and quicker - but it is still limited, slow, inefficient, and cumbersome, compared to the MOI changing driver which I believe replaced it ..


“2. Amplitude and Energy: For small swings (which may occur in the described system), the amplitude doesn’t change the period.”
I think the AI was referring to your swingers not the pendulum. Or why can’t the swingers swing higher each time? Which is part of the problem because as they swing they become weightless (partly) to the wheel till it gets locked in by the ratchet. They can swing higher and higher - that depends on the shaft length, and the bob mass etc - but most importantly on the relative severity of the acceleration and deceleration impulse ( f x t = momentum ) given to the fly-wheel they are attached to - I would expect the swing amplitude to increase as the average rpm increased .. all swinging objects have an acceleration and a tangential inertia which pulls on the pivot while in swing ( Centrifugal forces mv^2/r ) - when locked out they apply their torque at the geo-position the swinger bob is located at ..

[daxwc]

Fletcher: I would expect the swing amplitude to increase as the average rpm increased ..

But doesn’t that mean the swingers become even more partly weightless relative to the wheel till they get locked in by the ratchet?

The other side of the wheel has full weight of the mass on it. Are you sure isn't a wash?

[Fletcher]

Fletcher: I would expect the swing amplitude to increase as the average rpm increased ..

But doesn’t that mean the swingers become even more partly weightless relative to the wheel till they get locked in by the ratchet?

The other side of the wheel has full weight of the mass on it. Are you sure isn't a wash?

" But doesn’t that mean the swingers become even more partly weightless relative to the wheel till they get locked in by the ratchet? "

Think about the linear cart and swinger sim experiments - the reason the swingers gained GPE was because their inertia when unlocked was acting against the cart accelerating or decelerating i.e there was a torque around the swinger pivot connection and its own inertia caused it to rotate and rise upwards - due to Newton's Laws because everything has inertia then when things rotate about a pivot they want to continue in a straight line i.e. tangential force - this pulls on the pivot as it rotates ..

[daxwc]

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I will let you Fletcher give the percentage odds that it runs?

How did Bessler pin the top pivot of the large pendulum in his wheel?

[johannesbender]

My oppinion , i think build it or a subset or similar part of it , thats the way to go .

[Gregory]

dax .. below is an animation of a POP gravity driven arrangement I have been describing - fwiw it was deduced from my interpretation of the Toy's Page Toys - the motor is removed - the pendulum is preset to have maximum GPE and then released - the fly-wheel and the pendulum bob are both 10 kgs - the swinger bobs are 0.25 kg each ..

Note that the pendulum successfully accelerates the flywheel and the fly-wheel accelerates the pendulum for the half cycle - the swingers are moved by the acceleration and deceleration phases as described - unfortunately I can't build one-way bearings to be reliable in the sim program ( watch each of them in their positions ) - nonetheless you can see them swing about under their pivots and use imagination - a one-way bearing would only allow them to swing to the right and create a CW torque on the flywheel - and it is my contention this resetting OOB is more than enough to exceed ordinary system dissipative energy losses and in fact accelerate the fly-wheel - n.b. the pendulum ( contrary to what your Chatbot says can not swing higher, it can only swing faster - and if the fly-wheel increases in average rpm then the pendulum must be swinging thru bottom dead center with greater and greater velocity as rpm increases )

N.B. the animation of my sim shows the external pendulum does not lose any Net Momentum of note - however because I can't lock out the swingers to create a positive torque to turn the flywheel when the pendulum reaches its highest position the fly-wheel stops and reverses direction - if the swingers were true one-way swingers I contend the reversal would not happen ( re. cart and swingers sims ) ..

Also note that the swingers near top and bottom have the greatest "throw to oblique angle" from the acceleration and deceleration phases of the half cycle - however they all contribute to an average OOB replenishing torque, imo .. and that naturally the oblique angle locked at will only provide a torque on the fly-wheel thru the arc of the oblique angle until it hangs vertical again to await recharging ..

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Hey Fletcher!

So, you want those swingers to only be able to swing to the right...
Yeah, I understand what you're trying to do. Let them do their natural reactive swing, but put a directional filter on them and add a ratcheting/latching control to lock them into OOB periodically to their local right side at any rotational position of the wheel, no matter where they are at any given moment... Then release the lock when they're turned away with the wheel... And after that repeat this whole process indefinitely.

Not bad!
I think I should be able to do a sim like that. Not the simplest thing to do, however...
Probably needs some math and/or design tricks. Hmm, I have a couple of ideas I need to test for that... I will report back a few days later.

[Fletcher]

I will let you Fletcher give the percentage odds that it runs? I'd say better than even chance dax ..

How did Bessler pin the top pivot of the large pendulum in his wheel?

He didn't pin it IN his wheel dax ..

I have been saying from the beginning that I believe the EXTERNAL pendulum was one of two entities, the main wheel fly-wheel being the other, short crank connected together - they formed a partnership or alliance if you prefer of alternately giving and receiving Momentum from and to each other - but by themselves the dance would die down like any normal oscillating device without further energy input .. consequentially the main wheel fly-wheel had one-way swingers attached internally at whatever radius B. chose whose job was to use that jerky feedback and create a positive OOB bias ( aka asymmetric torque ) that then powered the wheel around and allowed the feedback oscillation and angular momentum to grow / gain ..

And imo this was his very first successful POP that he said turned a little - n.b. it was never publicly displayed or independently examined and there is no record that I'm aware of what it looked like etc ..

JC's AP .. "for I put together the very first device which could spontaneously revolve a little. I saw that I had finally made the right choice, and why the earlier ones had been wrong. My heart leapt for joy at the sight of this genuine Mobile" – AP pg 271

[Fletcher]

My opinion , i think build it or a subset or similar part of it , that's the way to go .

Absolutely jb, as long as the basic relationships are observed ..

However it is unlikely except for the most motivated - most of us are natural born fence sitters, especially if we hear a technology upgrade is just about to be released ..

Especially one where All Must Go Around Together ( AMGAT - & not hang from the axle ) inside a covered wheel, and had greater power / work potential, imo ..

[daxwc]

Fletcher: have been saying from the beginning that I believe the EXTERNAL pendulum was one of two entities, the main wheel fly-wheel being the other, short crank connected together - they formed a partnership or alliance if you prefer of alternately giving and receiving Momentum from and to each other - but by themselves the dance would die down like any normal oscillating device without further energy input .. consequentially the main wheel fly-wheel had one-way swingers attached internally at whatever radius B. chose whose job was to use that jerky feedback and create a positive OOB bias ( aka asymmetric torque ) that then powered the wheel around and allowed the feedback oscillation and angular momentum to grow / gain

..

Ok??? Dumb it down for me. Obvious I was asleep in class. It doesn’t need the external pendulum or it needs a separate loaded flywheel attached to a crank.

I realise it doesn't need it right away. I guess you are saying you think it was his first discovery worry about that shit later how he fitted it in the wheel.

I will let you Fletcher give the percentage odds that it runs? I'd say better than even chance dax ..

Considering it is you that is really good odds.

[Fletcher]

Ok??? Dumb it down for me. Obvious I was asleep in class. It doesn’t need the external pendulum or it needs a separate loaded flywheel attached to a crank.

It needs both otherwise there is no micro-bursts of pump and dump to continually reset the one-way swingers into overbalance bias that creates the torque to accelerate the wheel and grow the imbalance ..

I realise it doesn't need it right away. I guess you are saying you think it was his first discovery, ( Yes, his very first 1712 POP that turned a little and no one knew the details of ) worry about that shit later how he fitted it in the wheel. The external pendulum was imo ditched and replaced by internal MOI changing devices - these also pumped and dumped the system but more generously and efficiently ( remember his quip about adding more cruez ( crosses ) , zug ( pulls ) , and weights ? - the more crosses related to the MOI changing devices imo .. as a starter we have often wondered why there were toys C and D ( the hammermen toys ) in the middle of the TP and why he felt the need to essentially repeat them, albeit at different orienations - my answer is C was indicative of the external pendulum 1712 POP, and D was to indicate a second iteration enclosed within his covered wheels from Gera onwards - more later ..

I will let you Fletcher give the percentage odds that it runs? I'd say better than even chance dax ..

Considering it is you that is really good odds.

Hey dax, I realize that you are community spirited and often play the devils advocate just to keep the discussion and thoughts and threads going - I appreciate that - sometimes it helps me communicate better as these jaded thoughts have been galloping around in my head for far too long - ateotd B's. runners mechanics will be solved ..

ETA .. in the sim the external pendulum drive hangs from an external box frame ( red ) and wheel axle support structure ..

[Fletcher]

Hey Fletcher!

So, you want those swingers to only be able to swing to the right... Yes !

Yeah, I understand what you're trying to do. Let them do their natural reactive swing, but put a directional filter on them and add a ratcheting/latching control to lock them into OOB periodically to their local right side at any rotational position of the wheel, no matter where they are at any given moment... Then release the lock when they're turned away with the wheel... And after that repeat this whole process indefinitely. Got it in one Greg ! ..

Not bad! Ta ..

I think I should be able to do a sim like that. Looking forward to your attempts Greg .. Not the simplest thing to do, however...

Probably needs some math and/or design tricks. Hmm, I have a couple of ideas I need to test for that... I will report back a few days later. Take your time mate ..

Hey Gregory - your inputs and suggestions are always welcome, and appreciated - fwiw I burned the midnight oil for weeks on end trying to make it reliable - I reckon I got close to giving myself a full-on brain bleed and eventually had to put it aside and admit defeat for the time being - so it's real nice to have someone of your skill and expertise have a crack, appreciated, " team work makes the dream work " ..

I've included the gravity driven sim as an attachment so you don't have to reinvent the wheel entirely ( pun intended ) ( your choice of course ) - we both know we can build a single one-way ratchet with physical interactions - but that adds complexity especially when you want multiple ones around a wheel - so I used an activated and non-activated rod element - putting IF, AND, OR statements in the Properties > 'activate when' field - these i made conditional, starting with positive and negative accelerations of the swingers shafts etc - these would crash my program out in short order - IIRC I tried other conditional constraints involving relative geo-positioning of say swinger shaft to swinger bob ( y positions) etc, along with accelerations etc - lots of metrics was required, even if in the background ( more complexity for my laptop ) - anyways you probably have a better handle on it than me, and you are a fresh set of eyes and thoughts - and we can compare notes - so best of luck and look forward to the next report in .. cheers, good luck, and appreciated ..

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[daxwc]

Sorry didn't see the blue writing answer. 8)

[Fletcher]

Fletcher: ETA .. in the sim the external pendulum drive hangs from an external box frame ( red ) and wheel axle support structure ..

I know that 8)

But Bessler’s wheel didn’t have external pendulums on other than the drawings. How did he ground the pendulum?.

IMO B. didn't use pendulums at all after the very first 1712 POP - he immediately upgraded away from pendulums - so no need to ground anything other than the wheel support stand to the floor and ceiling - inside Everything Must Go Around Together ( EMGAT within the wheel ) ..