Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

[Fletcher]

@ Gregory .. you may be interested ( or confused ) in one of my earlier attempts at simming reliable one-way bearings ..

.. Basic sim attached ..

[daxwc]

Thanks Fletcher. Didn’t mean to make you repeat that. It would help if I learned to read. I got fooled the answer was in the quote.

I am sure others were confused also by the external pendulums; so I don’t feel too bad.

The design is simple and well thought out and with data SIMs. In 1712 it would have been a little hard to make.

[thx4]

IMO B. didn't use pendulums at all after the very first 1712 POP - he immediately upgraded away from pendulums - so no need to ground anything other than the wheel support stand to the floor and ceiling - inside Everything Must Go Around Together ( EMGAT within the wheel ) ..

I share this opinion (from experience), very complicated to manage a balance wheel, unless you have a power source and an escapement (clock version).
I've opted for a rotating pendulum (already mentioned) and I think it will work.
Then there's the question of how to distribute all this information. I have a problem with loulous like Deutschland and its patents, but there's no hurry...

[Georg Künstler]

I will make a suggestion to solve the problem with the pendulums in an easy way.

We know that a pendulum will oscillate. To achive this oscillation we will give this pendulum a push.
The frequence of the oscillation is depending on g and length of the pendulum.
I will ignore here the air resistance.

To increase the amplitude of the oscillation we need an action on this pendulum.
So we have different points where we can do this action.
In a child swing we will push or pull the child, result is an increased amplitude.
Also the child can , when the child swing is already swinging, increase the oscillation by moving legs or body back and forth.
That is what everyone can observe.

But there is an other way to increase the amplitude.
The way is to shorten and lengthen the rope, carrying the pendulum mass.
You do this periodically and you have a pumping.
The condition therefore is that the pendulum must already swing, then you can increase the amplitude with this periodical action.

This type of movement can be simulated, a periodic force on the rope, a swinging pendulum, and as a result an increasing amplitude.
In this case you do the periodically action to get the increasing amplitude.

The next step is to substitute our own doing with an second pendulum in that way that they can interact.

[johannesbender]

@ Gregory .. you may be interested ( or confused ) in one of my earlier attempts at simming reliable one-way bearings ..

.. Basic sim attached ..

That's okay , you can remove the rod , then pin a motor on top of the pin , set the motor to rotation with a value of 0 , then paste your formula in to the active field .

Secondly if you prefer , you can instead remove the normal pins , now add a generic pin , set the pin to damper , paste your code in the C field of the damper value (not the active field).

BTW option 2 is less prone to errors , because its not an active and deactive scenario.

[Fletcher]

Thanks jb , I'll give it a shot over the weekend - cheers ..

[Gregory]

Hey Gregory - your inputs and suggestions are always welcome, and appreciated - fwiw I burned the midnight oil for weeks on end trying to make it reliable - I reckon I got close to giving myself a full-on brain bleed and eventually had to put it aside and admit defeat for the time being - so it's real nice to have someone of your skill and expertise have a crack, appreciated, " team work makes the dream work " ..

I've included the gravity driven sim as an attachment so you don't have to reinvent the wheel entirely ( pun intended ) ( your choice of course ) - we both know we can build a single one-way ratchet with physical interactions - but that adds complexity especially when you want multiple ones around a wheel - so I used an activated and non-activated rod element - putting IF, AND, OR statements in the Properties > 'activate when' field - these i made conditional, starting with positive and negative accelerations of the swingers shafts etc - these would crash my program out in short order - IIRC I tried other conditional constraints involving relative geo-positioning of say swinger shaft to swinger bob ( y positions) etc, along with accelerations etc - lots of metrics was required, even if in the background ( more complexity for my laptop ) - anyways you probably have a better handle on it than me, and you are a fresh set of eyes and thoughts - and we can compare notes - so best of luck and look forward to the next report in .. cheers, good luck, and appreciated ..

Hey Fletcher,

Yeah, I feel your pain with all those clutch formula and stuff... just never works out of the box...

That's nice, thanks for the sim! But I reinvented the wheel anyway, I made some changes and upgrades.
Guess I figured out a formula for the clutch, it works so far... but more testing is needed.

@ Gregory .. you may be interested ( or confused ) in one of my earlier attempts at simming reliable one-way bearings ..

.. Basic sim attached ..

Right, that confused me a lot. :))
But I see you wanted to use rotational position and speed difference of swinger and a point or something...
I only used an AND() function so far with 2 rotational values logic statement. But I am doing some more testing to see if it's reliable.

[Gregory]

@ Gregory .. you may be interested ( or confused ) in one of my earlier attempts at simming reliable one-way bearings ..

.. Basic sim attached ..

That's okay , you can remove the rod , then pin a motor on top of the pin , set the motor to rotation with a value of 0 , then paste your formula in to the active field .

Secondly if you prefer , you can instead remove the normal pins , now add a generic pin , set the pin to damper , paste your code in the C field of the damper value (not the active field).

BTW option 2 is less prone to errors , because its not an active and deactive scenario.

Hey johannesbender,

I tried this magic damper, actually funny. Thanks for the idea!
I set it to work like there is a very dense air on the left side of the swinger's swing territory... dense like water or honey... and just normal air on the right side.
Ever tried to swing a big heavy pendulum under/inside thick honey? :)

[Fletcher]

.. The Evolution and the Bone Yard ..

" Toys Page ( aka TP ) " .. MT's 138-141 .. discussion pending ..

** Previous context .. in MT B. writes 'comments' beside the first 54 MT's - they are his thoughts about them - some straight forward and technical in nature, and some more enigmatic or mysteriously vague of meaning ( deliberately so, to draw attention ) ..

** The following are an in-order selection of his enigmatic 'comments' - the ones I personally consider to be the main ones of note ( there are others ) - I have paraphrased them into short form as I understand them ..

Relationships by Association and Grouping ..

Pre first mention of a Prime Mover ...

MT9 .. nothing can be achieved without his " zusammen gehangten " ( i.e. hang together ) principle ..

MT10 .. there is a correct handle and construction to be understood ..

Post first mention of a Prime Mover ...

MT15 .. shows a superior overbalance ( which is essential ) , however the Prime Mover source is not in the illustration ..

MT20 .. put the horse before the cart ..

MT38 .. there is a correct application of the Stork's-Bills ( SBs - plural ) ..

MT41 .. he " assures " the reader that there is something special behind the use and/or mechanics of Stork's-Bills ..

..................

[daxwc]

MT38 .. there is a correct application of the Stork's-Bills ( SBs - plural ) ..

It is plural because the is more than one in the drawing.

How many are on the toypage?

Correct application may actual go so far back that you are using it for the wrong purpose. In MT38 it is being used to apply force. It is just as likely it might be used for balance or something else. The strange way he built SB on the Toypage is about something and it isn’t force if it is wandering around Phi. That is purely my opinion.

[Fletcher]

Re. TP .. imo mostly symbolic representation and not literal mechanics ..

...............

As Oystein alerted us to many years ago ' A ' curiously gives us the Roman numerals for 15 ( XV ) - 10 and 5 - JEEB -> J = X , E = 5 ..

* A push back to MT15 where we read a superior weight / overbalance is shown ( required ) .. i.e. a mechanical arrangement to generate asymmetric torque .. additionally, a Prime Mover is also required ..

A & B => both are basic stick figure drawings representing Swingers and their function to create overbalance - ' A ' is to be looped into a circle ( n.b. the hung together principle ) - ' B ' shows an alternating pattern, of one followed by the other, where a swinger lever movement is controlled / constrained i.e. it can move in one direction more than the opposite direction ..

...............

[daxwc]

Fletcher: Re. TP .. imo mostly symbolic representation and not literal mechanics ..

Could be. I still don't understand why he carved off the hand on the Jacob's ladder. Nothing we have speculated about makes any real sense in that direction.

[Fletcher]

Toy ' E ' .. a Stork's Bill ( SB ) is used in the lifting of weight demonstration ..

.. this SB is made up of a number of pivoted X sections and a V .. X is 10 in Roman numerals , or 5 + 5 ( 55 - re. John Collins ) , or VV or ' X ' when one is above the other and mirror imaged - the Freemason Logo of square and compass which we are all familiar with of a V with an upside down V ( ^ ) placed directly over it - Ernst Elias EE , VV ..

* Basically the SB ' X ' is mechanically important in the involved process of lifting a weight and restitution of its GPE so that it can again provide a ' superior weight ' / overbalance torque .. shades of MT13 where someone / something must be available to lift the weights back up ..

** Note that the SB does its work by applying forces to it - it can have the handles pushed together , or pulled apart to extend or retract the point ( weight ) up or down etc ..

..................

[Fletcher]

Here are Toys C and D , the " Hammermen " Toys from the TP - they are at the center of the illustration ( i.e. a position of importance / focal point / draw your eye to ) ..

* On the TP there were originally 5 toys ( A , B , C , D, E ) with a later toy added at the bottom along with the comments ..

Only considering the unadulterated original there are only 4 numbers and 5 toys, meaning one toy type ( action ) is repeated - it is natural to assume toys C and D are essentially the same parallelogram / pantograph toy ( since they are very similar ) both activated by two children each applying synchronized PUSH and PULL forces to the handles, and conclude that C and D are the repeated toys .. I offer that in fact stick figure toys A and B are the same toy, and toys C and D " represent " an evolution of B's original Prime Mover - the first being the very first but redundant POP external pendulum, to be upgraded and replaced by a slimmed down and more efficient internal ' all must go around together ' Moment Of Inertia ( MOI ) changing device(s) .. both iterations of toys C and D manifesting an ALTERNATING " PUSH and PULL " force to cause the superior weight / overbalance required in a runner ..

* I have explained what I believe was the first iteration 1712 POP external pendulum Prime Mover connected by short crank to the wheel and the secondary ' superior OOB system ' ..

* When I next have the time I will discuss and show how I arrived at a slimmed down and more efficient upgrade to a mechanical alternative " PUSH and PULL " Prime Mover mechanism which I believe Toy D suggests is there to be found ..

...............

[johannesbender]

@ Gregory .. you may be interested ( or confused ) in one of my earlier attempts at simming reliable one-way bearings ..

.. Basic sim attached ..

That's okay , you can remove the rod , then pin a motor on top of the pin , set the motor to rotation with a value of 0 , then paste your formula in to the active field .

Secondly if you prefer , you can instead remove the normal pins , now add a generic pin , set the pin to damper , paste your code in the C field of the damper value (not the active field).

BTW option 2 is less prone to errors , because its not an active and deactive scenario.

Hey johannesbender,

I tried this magic damper, actually funny. Thanks for the idea!
I set it to work like there is a very dense air on the left side of the swinger's swing territory... dense like water or honey... and just normal air on the right side.
Ever tried to swing a big heavy pendulum under/inside thick honey? :)

i justed copied and pasted fletcher's formula code into the C variable of the damper of a generic pin and it worked like his rod , except there is no activation and deactivation , it just alters the value.