Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[Fletcher]

The only way a wheel can keep rotating is by "breaking" laws of physics.

@Tarsier,

B's secret is simply an idea we haven't had yet, that's all. Yes ..

When Karl says an apprentice can do it easily, he's talking about the object, not the idea. As for the idea, Karl is surprised that no one before B has done it.

Bessler .. XXI (b) Here Wagner lists all mechanical implements.

Wagner seems almost to have run out of fancies. He says nothing can be achieved with "mechanical implements", the gist being that my Mobile must be impossible because I designed it to be driven by some "mechanical power". But did I not, in Part One, devote more than one line to a discussion of the type of "excess impetus" that people should look for in my devices? Once more I will humbly extol the virtues of this passage to my next worthy reader. Even Wagner, wherever he is now, will have heard that one pound can cause the raising of more than one pound. He writes that, to date, no one has ever found a mechanical arrangement sufficient for the required task. He's right! So am I, and does anyone see why? What if I were to teach the proper method of mechanical application? Then people would say: "Now I understand!” AP pg 341/342

B. is saying that Wagner's mechanical knowledge of using mechanical implements is incomplete .. B's. use of implement(s) give a power and excess impetus to a runner - that mechanical arrangement is only known to B. - B. could teach the proper method of mechanical application and we would all understand how that application of implements gives a mechanical power and excess impetus to make a runner ..

Once you know how to make a Rubik's Cube, it's a piece of cake. .. Right, simple once shown, or discovered ..

[Fletcher]

...Well its obvious that although what Bessler did was said to be simple the knocking noise itself gives it away as having a certain amount of over all complexity.

I have often thought that its more likely to be a collection of simple well understood movements thereby giving it an air of simplicity that actually isn’t that simple once you stand back and appreciate the full movement. ...

Agree - if a runner was made of well understood movements from common implements and applications put to work in a novel way then it is not the implements or movements that is special nor not understood, but the way they are combined and synchronized .. looking for things that set him apart from many other mechanics of his time, B. had first hand experience repairing clocks ( and a sunburst light bulb moment ) ..

[Roxaway59]

Hi Fletcher, thanks for taking the time to describe my sim, you did that a lot more accurately than I could have done.

Do you think that some kind of adaptation of an escapement could have been used on Besslers wheel?

Graham

[Fletcher]

Do you think that some kind of adaptation of an escapement could have been used on Besslers wheel?

100 % Graham ..

But imo there is more to it than that - what I am calling the basic Prime Mover ( i.e. the prototype runner external pendulum ) in my thread you will well know by now is an externally mounted swinging pendulum, direct connected to the wheel by the short crank ( as per his engravings ) - this direct connection crank arm communicates the momentum / impulse of the swinging pendulum to the wheel and from the wheel back to the pendulum again, to repeat over and over i.e. zero sum Work Done less minimal dissipative energy losses - this is a type of escapement action designed to control aspects of the runners rpm imo ..

** Escapement - google ..

1. a mechanism in a clock or watch that alternately checks and releases the train by a fixed amount and transmits a periodic impulse from the spring or weight to the balance wheel or pendulum.

Imo a regulating escapement type input is essential because we need a novel way to break free of the chains of Classical Newtonian Mechanics - as has been mentioned elsewhere there are only 2 ways to get a runner - 1. augment the force of gravity on the down-going side of the wheel i.e. speed up the weights with little back-torque penalty for your efforts .. or .. 2. have a discounted cost of lifting said weights on the up-going side to restore system GPE and have a little excess impetus left over so that the wheel accelerates and gains in momentum ( and rpm ) ..

And imo to break the shackles of Classical Mechanics I believe we need to look for an answer in the Work Energy Equivalence Principle ( WEEP ) - where, as my sims showed in that thread, WD does NOT always equal Energy - in some arrangements Energy can be greater than WD ..

Summarized - the Prime Mover aka Escapement device is the key imo to controlling a 'process' of cause and effect, and ultimately finding a mechanical "workaround" to Classical Newtonian Mechanics delivering an "excess impetus" to build and sustain a runners rotation ..

[daxwc]

Fletcher:
1. a mechanism in a clock or watch that alternately checks and releases the train by a fixed amount and transmits a periodic impulse from the spring or weight to the balance wheel or pendulum.

I keep wondering if we aren’t getting this backwards. Where the pendulum is actually giving an impulse to the spring.

Sort of like off a flywheel (stored energy) to the pendulum. Then pendulum to the spring but not in the usual way. The energy gets ratcheted in by a mechanical device. Or you twist the backend of a coil spring with the impulse.

[Roxaway59]

daxwc, its funny you should mention the coiled spring because I keep thinking about weights attached to coil springs that move in and out like with the yo yo effect.

I have no way of simulating it and I have no access to coiled springs at the moment to try real experiments.

Graham

[thx4]

https://youtu.be/0UNX8o6_8Hw?si=NbiqzpdFl2Cyf7HM

I tried this 3 years ago, time flies!
I have the same phenomenon as two pendulums side by side on the same axis.
The pendulum slows down and the disc accelerates and vice versa, the experience is quite messy. For the moment, I've abandoned the idea of a spring.

[Sam Peppiatt]

thx4,
That's nice! It's like its alive an breathing. Breathing hope into a runner-------------------Sam

[Roxaway59]

Hi everyone I haven't posted for a while due to work that I have to do but I have been looking at the discussions taking place.

As many here might realize I do experiment with a lot of simulations and sometimes I simulate something that I don't know what to make of.

Recently I was looking through simulations and came across one that I left. This was probably because I wasn't convinced it was anything important but looking at it again it does have an interesting motion to it and is reminiscent of some of Besslers drawings.

Anyway here it is and as usual run it and turn off the motor.

Graham

[Oystein]

Bessler's prime mover is a fascinating theme.

Reading this thread I want to stress the fact that a Prime Mover or actually Primum Movens as Bessler wrote, was a historical concept, and they discussed two different physical configurations! The Primum Movens concept was well known to natural philosophers, astronomers, astrologers, Alchemists and theologian. It should have been well known to Bessler to. The idea was that If you wanted to understand why planets move, you must identify the/their Primum Movens (Often thought to be god in some invisible matter/gas/aether form).

Common Nature-Philosophical ideas:
Primum Movens version 1: One single object/force, causing everything else, planets etc. to move or rotate.
Primum Movens version 2: Many individual object/forces, working in pairs, causing first motion to each individual object/planet. NB! Primum Movens was invisible!

With this in mind while looking at the counterclockwise MT 13 and 15 as "twin drawings", we can deduce some possible intentions by Bessler:

MT 13 has One single/central Primum Movens, while MT 15 then has one or more? invisible Primum Movens!

Let's say he uses Aristotle's and later the Catholic and Jesuits idea of Primum Movens, either working as version 1 or version 2... (as it was still up for debate). (Now wonder why the Jesuit priest and Bessler learned so much from exchanging their secrets. And why the Priest was looking for PM? The Primum Movens "must have been caused by god.."

If MT 13 as the first counterclockwise drawing used the first form of one single Primum Movens, then in MT 15 could have used the Primum Movens version 2? (Pairs of one Primum Movens per planet/sphere/weight.)

I also believe this was the case in his machine. As he said, there was not one stationary object causing the other objects to move, in his machine, but rather everything revolved together. So then, his MT 15 Primum Movens could have worked in pairs. One Primum Movens per weight.

This is my conclusion, backed from my knowledge of historical consensus, the higher but common knowledge at the time he lived, and what can be deduced also directly from the drawings.

I think that viewing the special features of MT, and MT 13 and 15 in this way, if true, answers a lot of questions that have been raised about oddities in the MT drawings collection. I hope some will see this as valuable or at least interesting in their research. Good luck, and hang on in 2025!

Best
Øystein

[Roxaway59]

Hi Oystein, that’s an interesting post.

People say that you cant get something for nothing and that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

This statement is not correct in my opinion because not only is the universe full of free lunches but since many believe that the universe came from nothing then the universe itself is a free lunch.

There is also a connectedness between this reality and other realities with particles popping in and out of our universe. Presumably doing work here and then popping into some other reality to do work there.

If you look at my last simulation it has a wheel and a balanced mechanism attached to the axle. The yellow weights are both attached to the balancing mechanism and to the wheel itself. The weights are continually oscillating between imparting their weight on the mechanism and on the wheel itself.

MT13 has its prime mover hanging from the axle and maybe the prime move for MT15 is something that is balancing on the axle.

Two of the closest Bessler Drawings to the sim I am showing would be MT24 and MT25 and Bessler writes quite positively about these.

No. 24. This invention should not to be scorned. It consists of special weighted levers and some hinged iron rods that close between the levers and can fold inward. There is, however, more to explain about it before you will grasp and correctly understand its good qualities.

No. 25. This is similar to the previous model except that it is drawn somewhat differently and with longer rods; there is something misleading about the diagram, because the folding rods should not project so far out but must bend further inward. There is more to this than one might think. Mark my words.

Oystein wrote -

I also believe this was the case in his machine. As he said, there was not one stationary object causing the other objects to move, in his machine, but rather everything revolved together. So then, his MT 15 Primum Movens could have worked in pairs. One Primum Movens per weight.

Some things that Bessler writes can be confusing and its hard to know if it was meant to be taken literally. I’ve always thought that if I took one of Besslers working wheels and hung something on its axle it wouldn’t make the slightest difference to its action. So why worry about putting something on the axle?

Something that is attached to the axle can interact with the wheel in a major way or it could do nothing.

Bessler pointing out that nothing is hung from his axle seems a little redundant when you think that the load is actually attached to the axle and the load itself can react with his wheel and prime mover.

On my sim nothing is remaining stationary and everything is oscillating including the balancing mechanism. I suppose that we wont fully understand Besslers words properly until we rediscover his wheel.

All the best
Graham

[Sam Peppiatt]

Oystein,
I never knew that! As you have explained it; that's good stuff--------------------Sam

(Something has to cause first motion, first rotation) I.E., first motion on the wheel, maybe.

[daxwc]

Oystein: Primum Movens version 2: Many individual object/forces, working in pairs, causing first motion to each individual object/planet. NB! Primum Movens was invisible!

Can you provide reference for the pairs Primum Movens prior to 1712?
I can find nothing.

[Roxaway59]

I have quickly altered the position of the yellow weights so that they go closer to where all the connecting rods converge on one side of the balancing mechanism.

The result is that it works much better even though I have only done it roughly because I don't have much time today.

As before run it and turn off the motor. I'm starting to think there is something to this.
Graham

[Roxaway59]

I have had a go it increasing the amount of weights on this simulation.

What I have found is unusual for Algodoo.

Usually if a simulation goes over unity in Algodoo very often if you increase the amount of weights / crossbars it loses power.

This simulation is doing the opposite its getting stronger.

I struggled to put 4 weights on it because to do it you basically have to double up on everything.

I managed to put eight weights on this one but I had to have 2 sections of 4 weights acting together in order to do this because I couldn't get it precise enough and it kept locking up.

Run it and you will see that it is stronger and you can even turn air resistance on and take it up to 10.

I will have to check this out in WM2D.
Graham