Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

[Tarsier79]

Sam, the closest things we have to facts are the eyewitness accounts. Anything can potentially be a clue, just as the post moving once per revolution.
If the wheel was perfectly balanced, what internal driving mechanism would operate only once per revolution, as an accumulated product of 8 impacts?
If it was off-balanced enough to lift a post, then the wheel was mounted in open bearings, wouldn't it have tried to jump out of them? Or am I imagining that it was translocated to open bearings and ran...

[Sam Peppiatt]

I think it could be the hoist. Without a level winder, a rope won't wind evenly. One layer will tend to climb up on top of another one, on one side of the drum and not on the other side it. Producing a big lump. Which; causes a sever, momentary change in the tension on the rope or cable.

Then, If the sheave on the floor was off to the side of the wheel axle, the rope would pull a little bit sideways on it. This could cause changes in the force or forces on the post, moving it, to coincide with the once around, effect of the uneven winding of the rope.
If you think that construes fraud; well never mind--------------Sam

Oh! Hi Tarsier; seams like the post was moving but, not up and down. That's BS! I believe in the wheel but, not in BS.

[johannesbender]

I think , simply , if there was a bounce , it can also be a possibility as an example ,that such a force could happen if the axle wasn't exactly straight , imagine a slight curved axle and if there were weight on it the weight would pull in the perpendicular direction of where the curve is.

[daxwc]

JB: I think , simply , if there was a bounce , it can also be a possibility as an example ,that such a force could happen if the axle wasn't exactly straight , imagine a slight curved axle and if there were weight on it the weight would pull in the perpendicular direction of where the curve is.

That is what I first thought too but since it is open bearing then it should try to crawl the bushing sleeve. But that is not witnessed what is witnessed is just an up down crack movement. Either a resonance or a direct force down. Fletcher’s Stork bills would cause a direct force into the axle downwards. Wagner and Borlach thought it was a direct force up from their drawing.

But a resonance could develop over the wheel being too heavy and on an axle that is flexing under the weight. The only way to tell would be different RPM and start-ups observation.

I could be wrong strange vibrations happen in machinery from things you sometimes wouldn’t expect.

[Fletcher]

Thanks for taking the time to find that Trev; appreciated.

Same Trev .. thanks for that ..

[Gregory]

Hi Gregory .. what I think is special behind SB's ..

Here's the animation and sim attached ..

This is bizarro - for 20 years I have built these things and they almost always lock up ( bind ) straight away or after a swing or so - sometimes just all fall off the screen ( pins let go etc ) - I would check the accuracy settings and tweak them around etc - sometimes this worked and sometimes it did not - so I developed workarounds after a while, like replacing one or two rods with very stiff spring elements - gears worked quite good ( see the third one ) - what I really wanted was a geared system with the two gears colocated if doable i.e. one on top of the other - the fourth one was an attempt to use an internal gear hence why there is an extra gear above in my trial sim this morning ..

Anyhoo, I was playing around with them this morning - the usual not behaving, frustration building - playing with the accuracy setting ( number 1 was working ok at 200 fps reasonably well ) then for no apparent reason 1 and 2 bad boys behaved perfectly out of no where across all accuracies - no bad or erratic behaviour, or crashing the sim - I tried it from 50 fps to 2000 fps and it did what it was supposed to do - I'm scratching my head in a good way ..

Maybe you have a better way of making them that is reliable ?

cheers -f

Hey Fletcher,

Try this one (attached), I think it should work.

The method is like this:
1. Connect a gear element from the first swinger to the idler wheel. Set the gear ratio to -2.000
2. Second swinger moved to front, I pinned it to a separate anchored object (shouldn't be necessary in theory).
3. Connect another gear element, now from the second swinger to the idler wheel. Set the gear ratio to +2.000
4. Let it go! Plus a pint of red ale... Hopefully that works!

Well, sometimes these stacked things might go out of the window without a reason. But usually a workaround can be found, most of the times.
The reason for the gear ratios -2 and +2 is because if you try it with -1 / +1, then wm2d will look into the abyss in quite a weird way...
Otherwise, it can be any number further from -1 / 1, and that must work the same.

[Fletcher]

So we have a 300 lb disk on a shaft sitting in open plain bearings. It is doing 26 RPM. Is it likely one end is jumping/moving up once per revolution?


"Borlach Quote: "The great wonder of the perpetual motion machine, so long sought in vain by the curious world, and now invented by Mister Orffyreus, made known through the 'Leipziger Gazetten' in the 4th article of the 36 week of 1715, of which [it was] observed on the 22nd July 1715, that a spot was patched/marked in the post at A and that same post lifted up in half a turn of the wheel, and with the other half a turn fell down again, which was seen because the post was coated/painted, and at B the uncoated/unpainted place always came out. Borlach."


Q. to ChatGPT ... Gradual I would say? What do you think of the quote? A is just bellow the shaft on the bearing block but B is right on the floor. I am unsure why the frame at the floor is rising up? Does this seem natural?

If Bessler’s wheel was designed to produce excess force or reaction torque, this movement might have been a side effect—or even a clue about its operation. The fact that it was noticed and recorded suggests it wasn’t just random shaking but a consistent, predictable effect.

Does this change your thoughts on how the wheel was anchored or what was happening inside?

I don't know. I usually was working with machinery that are not in open bearings and doing faster than that. My suspicion is just resonance or what Fletcher just showed you where the forces of the SB are directed downward. The crack at the floor is just the heavy weight being taken off, it isn't actually jumping.

Nobody is saying the shaft is crawling up one side of the bearing sleeve. Seems Fletcher is headed in the right direction.

Hey dax .. a bit to unpack here, and I don't mean to be picky or pedantic ..

Minor corrections iinm .. Gartner and Borlach's first hand viewing was in the Summer ( 22 July ) of 1715 - it was of the Merseburg Green Room wheel - it ran at 42 RPM - it was just a stop and start, reverse direction etc run test, and not the later testimonial 1st October 1715 lifting a box of bricks and translocation test where weights were removed and put back in etc - the bearings were left open after the translocation to the second set of floor to ceiling supports ( see 3rd testimonial ) .. the bearings were probably closed all the time for the July viewing ( since there was no translocation test ) that G. and B. attended ..

Right, no one said the wheel shaft was climbing up an open bearing ( it wasn't open ) - even Gartner, the King's highly experienced model maker from Dresden, would not bother to comment about ordinary vibration effects etc, that would be foolish of him - what he and Borlach saw was enough to stick in their minds and record, because it was perplexing to these experienced men - they rationalized it as a person in the next room periodically pulling a hidden crank inside the post via the rope and rocker in the roof to cause the whole post to lift upwards for half a turn - then the post sat back down again for the next half turn ..

At 42 RPM that equates to about 1.4 secs per revolution, or say 0.7 seconds per half revolution - the post with in-situ axle lifted up for half a turn and then was back down for the next 0.7 secs half turn .. normal resonance and vibrations are NOT like that - it was slow and you could set your watch by it ..

You said " or what Fletcher just showed you where the forces of the SB are directed downward. The crack at the floor is just the heavy weight being taken off, it isn't actually jumping. "

Good comments - my internally rotating Prime Mover based on a special purpose for a SB section ( the pend upgrade ) relates also back to your earlier question that I said I would revisit - let's imagine that the wheel rotation is just caused by any OOB weights system renewing its GPE and torque - put that aside .. ok, now imagine my upgrade SB ascending with the wheel - at or near 10 o'cl gravity takes over and the central weight "falls", as do the " A " arm weights - in that moment they have a reduced weight force on the wheel ( i.e. partial free-fall analogy ) - the wheel has less total weight force holding it down - it could rise sightly if something were pulling it upwards because equilibrium of forces has been broken ( action reaction ) - then it's "free-fall" is arrested and to conserve its momentum and energy it must rise back up again to reset itself - as you predict its inertia causes a down-going force of the entire wheel pushing it downwards - rinse and repeat - the Prime Mover reset happens after 2 o'cl so that it has less vertical height to recover than when it began its morph - it gets past 2 o'cl because the OOB system torque has turned the complete wheel on ..

Why the " A " shape ? - like the T-bar weights on a pendulum the weights at the end of the A arms have inertia ( as does the main falling driver weight ) - this slows down the fall and rise again sequence otherwise it would try to recover its lost height too quickly and before 2 o'cl ( it needs to be slowed down hence the SB morphing segment and not just a straight driver weight ( too quick ) ) ..

I think of it like this if it helps ..

The A morphs on the upside and recovers on the downside - its action has 2 main benefits - the ice-skater effect ( changing wheel MOI re acceleration and deceleration ) and its inertia unloading and loading the wheel weight etc - summed up as continually unbalancing forces ( action reaction ) - seen by G. and B. as the wheel rising and falling about each half turn ( not quick jumping, or vibrating, or a hop ) ..

...................

[Fletcher]

Sam, the closest things we have to facts are the eyewitness accounts. Anything can potentially be a clue, just as the post moving once per revolution.

If the wheel was perfectly balanced, what internal driving mechanism would operate only once per revolution, as an accumulated product of 8 impacts?

If it was off-balanced enough to lift a post, ...

Thanks T .. yep try to replicate the half turn whole wheel lift and fall down again, not a hop or vibration ..

[Fletcher]

I think it could be the hoist. Without a level winder, a rope won't wind evenly. One layer will tend to climb up on top of another one, on one side of the drum and not on the other side it. Producing a big lump. Which; causes a sever, momentary change in the tension on the rope or cable.

Then, If the sheave on the floor was off to the side of the wheel axle, the rope would pull a little bit sideways on it. This could cause changes in the force or forces on the post, moving it, to coincide with the once around, effect of the uneven winding of the rope.
If you think that construes fraud; well never mind--------------Sam

Oh! Hi Tarsier; seams like the post was moving but, not up and down. That's BS! I believe in the wheel but, not in BS.

[johannesbender]

JB: I think , simply , if there was a bounce , it can also be a possibility as an example ,that such a force could happen if the axle wasn't exactly straight , imagine a slight curved axle and if there were weight on it the weight would pull in the perpendicular direction of where the curve is.

That is what I first thought too but since it is open bearing then it should try to crawl the bushing sleeve. But that is not witnessed what is witnessed is just an up down crack movement. Either a resonance or a direct force down. Fletcher’s Stork bills would cause a direct force into the axle downwards. Wagner and Borlach thought it was a direct force up from their drawing.

But a resonance could develop over the wheel being too heavy and on an axle that is flexing under the weight. The only way to tell would be different RPM and start-ups observation.

I could be wrong strange vibrations happen in machinery from things you sometimes wouldn’t expect.

imo , an open bearing cant have a post crack moving up and down since it cant pull the post up if its open , and he specifically made the assertion that the post had a crank inside being manipulated through the post from the top , so imo there cant be an open U shaped bearing with that as shown to be contrary in the drawing imo.

never mind saw Fletcher post the same.

[daxwc]

Yes JB and Fletcher I got the wrong wheel and it was before he could transport it. That said it doesn’t stop the action mentioned.

Fletcher: “they rationalized it as a person in the next room periodically pulling a hidden crank inside the post via the rope and rocker in the roof to cause the whole post to lift upwards for half a turn - then the post sat back down again for the next half turn .”

Exactly… the oddest thing; I assume he knew what a resonate vibration or unbalance (crooked shaft) looked like as Borlach was a mining engineer and surveyor.

Axle or Shaft Issues: If the axle or shaft is not perfectly straight, it would cause the whole wheel to move up and down as it rotates. Which would have been noticed. Usually you see other things shaking before looking at the shaft.

[johannesbender]

That is true , i was thinking an axle inside however i cant imagine that being full of compartments and holes , only thing to say is there was an force on the post presumably coming from the axle , however as you mention Daxwc - why whould the wheel not have rocked about and been mentioned is the same question i would ask.

[spinner361]

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[Trev]

Could the wheel have been trying to precess, and hence the need for the floor to ceiling supports?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5bKzBZ7XuM

[daxwc]

Maybe Trev but then wheel had a shifting mass or internal mechanism that generated a torque perpendicular to the rotation. Precession is usually a high speed phenomenon. So then it needs even more torque sideways. I would assume this would cause the wheel/shaft to also slide or shift side-to-side if there were lateral forces. Yet we have open U bearings in the later wheel.

Also if Bessler needed a ceiling post, it means something about the forces involved required extra stabilization; which doesn’t happen in a simple, passive spinning system.

Or the alternative the post going to the ceiling was intend for another purpose all together and that is hanging his external pendulums on. Not one witness complained about the external pendulums being in various drawings in all his books. They had to have been seen sometimes on and in the room. Obviously my opinion.

Or if Bessler needed to hide the true purpose of the ceiling post, the external pendulums could have been an intentional distraction. It is circular enigma.