Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

[Fletcher]

I happy if it worked! Enjoy your red ale, I also open mine. I usually drink pints of 'Speights' on a Friday night as I play some pool - so last night I changed my first pint to an old favourite when I was a young man, 'Lion Red' - then just kept on going with it lol ..

One stupid problem can occur with stacking...

A pin joint at the bottom of a stack can sometimes jump across the whole to the top. Obviously we use joints for a reason, so that can be pretty annoying! But no worries... If you take it apart, fix the missing joint and put it all back together... Then it will work again, it's just a pain... Same - the pin migrating to the top can drive me nuts sometimes ..

That's why I usually do a 'Save As' when some stacked design is completed, and only advance/change things in the new file. So, If something goes wrong I can always go back to version one without much effort. lol - that's why I have 1,000's of old files, each a small step forward on the last - learned the hard way to 'Save As' as a new file regularly, after even just small changes - beats building from scratch again, usually ..

So yes, anything other than -1 works, f.e. -0.95 or -1.05 Absolute nonsense... It's totally not logical, most likely a bug in the software. Agree, it is most likely a bug to keep in mind and remember the workaround - glad I know it now ..


When I first encountered it, I was like... what the heck? Then I tried another number and laughed out loud, wtf... Lucky break ..

Perhaps wm2d is afraid of Euler's identity, aka -1. Like our Orange Stickman in the animation: lol ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1J6Ou4q8vE

[Fletcher]

JB: @Fletcher, in an earlier discussion on this topic, I mentioned that the lifting could have been fabricated to support his accusation against Bessler. But who knows? Bessler never responded to the lifting post. If the post lifted, then the axle must have lifted too. Consequently, when viewed from the side, the wheel would have rocked since it's connected to the axle. The extent of the rocking would depend on where the wheel is situated on the axle—whether in the middle or closer to one side.

I respectfully disagree, JB. The wheel isn't being lifted. It's not shaking or vibrating. In my humble opinion, THE wheel is experiencing a direct downward force every half cycle. Agreed dax .. most of us ( then and now ) try to stand back and be objective - we study and analyze any and all 'evidence' that did not come directly from B. himself as a sort of corroborating or elimination exercise - in this case iinm G. and B. went across to report back on the Merseburg wheel - I am confident this is what they observed and recorded in their engraving, and they didn't have a predetermined agenda to falsify anything - they were both highly experienced in mechanics, in responsible positions, and wouldn't have noted the obvious which could get shot down in a heart beat and make them look foolish and pedantic - B. did that himself by focusing on the pull by rope and internal crank from another room theory seem totally unhinged and of bad character - yet they were trying to offer an explanation of what they saw and viewed as a significant anomaly - so B. trashed them in DT and successfully avoided talking anything about the anomaly they witnessed - even Wolff and s'Gravesande mentioned that the October tests were in part to refute any 'suggestion' of internal cranks in posts and people pulling ropes from another room ..

It's like when you laden a shaft in machinery. You see the shaft/axle move in the direction of the force. Often, this force is perpendicular, causing the shaft to shift slightly left or right within the roller bearings. So, considering the periodic force, we can imagine that each downward push aligns with a specific point in the wheel's rotation. This would create a consistent rhythm, rather than an erratic shaking or lifting . This repetitive downward force ensures that the wheel remains stable and doesn't rock or lift. Yep seems very much like it - a repeating unchanging rhythm you could set your clock by - about each half cycle the wheel is forced down, then it lifts back up - Every Action has an Equal Reaction !

This can be likened to the motion of a piston in an engine, moving up and down in a controlled manner due to the consistent application of force. Similarly, the wheel experiences a predictable movement with the force applied every half cycle, maintaining stability and preventing any rocking motion but is opening the cracks up upon weight transfer.

A better way to say it is not opening the cracks it is moving the cracks.

Hopefully that made sense. Does to me ..

[Fletcher]

Personally my opinion right now is the posts/pillars went to the ceiling only for one reason that is to hang his external pendulums off. What role do they play?

So the wheel runs without the external pendulums but they are crucial. Correct, ALL his runner viewings were of wheels sans any external pendulums ( 2 of opposed as per the engravings ) - yet you will have noted in his DT engravings that he shows the wheels lifting boxs of rocks, lifting water, or lifting stamps etc, with no pendulums in the same engraving - then beside it he draws another engraving of the same wheel with the pendulums included in case you might forget them ( or what they mean ) ..

In fact so crucial that he draws them in his drawings to cement his legacy if the invention is ever rediscovered. yes/no? YES to cement legacy of " provenance " !

By including them in his drawings, Bessler likely aimed to emphasize their importance and ensure that anyone who studies his work in the future would understand their significance. So they are not directly part of the secret mechanism/action/motion but needed in some capacity. IMO, they represent a mechanical idea found in the DNA of his runners ..

[johannesbender]

I think its all bs , they blatently accused bessler of fraud , they werent nearly as gentleman and considering of any proof at all .

Instead of having a gentlemanly conversation and being open to the possibility of a discovery (what ever it may be , pm or not) , he went behind besslers back and published the pamflet showinf blatant full in your face claims of fraudulant action .

He was biased and made assumptions with no prood , period .

Its a matter that i simply wont change my mind on , bessler said it all .

Whether he was a fake or not , does not grant one the power to make that assumption based on a crack or what ever it was.

Imo he is no credible source of information , i would not both cherry pick and credit him as a trusted source .

[Fletcher]

For those that say there is no evidence that the external pendulums exist because it was never reported need to remember the quote, "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence."

Absolutely, by all means remember that ..

Even Borlach's drawings have the cranks on the outside of the wheel, where the pendulums would attach.

As far as I am aware no one outside of B. himself ( or repeating what B. said ) ever mentions first hand witnessing the pendulums, or the external crank handles ! .. I may have forgotten something that contradicts that so feel free to put that right ..

Below is the main part of Borlach's engraving of the July Merseburg wheel visit - and beside it is B's. copy ( with changes he made ) of Borlach's engraving he included in DT - note that Borlach had no external cranks in his detailed engraving, while in B's. copy in DT he deliberately adds them in, for his own reasons ..

ETA .. maybe as jb suspects they were deliberately left out by Borlach for whatever reason that also suited him and Gartner - all I can do is try to be objective and impartial about who and what is recorded ..

I am not aware I think of any other Borlach drawing that has external cranks added ? ..

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[Fletcher]

Nice drawing by the way JB.

But I think both sides of the axle and bearings are going down just the other side is just flexing and not breaking the paint. We are talking millimeters of movement.

Ditto ..

[Fletcher]

I think its all bs , they blatently accused bessler of fraud , they werent nearly as gentleman and considering of any proof at all .

Instead of having a gentlemanly conversation and being open to the possibility of a discovery (what ever it may be , pm or not) , he went behind besslers back and published the pamflet showinf blatant full in your face claims of fraudulant action .

He was biased and made assumptions with no prood , period .

Its a matter that i simply wont change my mind on , bessler said it all .

Whether he was a fake or not , does not grant one the power to make that assumption based on a crack or what ever it was.

Imo he is no credible source of information , i would not both cherry pick and credit him as a trusted source .

That's your prerogative jb .. and maybe you are right - afterall it seems a little coincidental that the maid testified under oath many years later that she and others took turns pulling on the crank - ridiculous as it seems and the inspection tests refuted ( bad look for G. and B. ) - wonder where she got that idea from and who was still promoting it ?

[daxwc]

Fletcher: I am not aware I think of any other Borlach drawing that has external cranks added ? ..

We are stuck on wording. You might call them handles. Axles don’t need handles they are cranks and they are curved to reduce stress in the direction of the curve. They attach to the pendulums.

Why do the mills of the same era not have the cranks?

[daxwc]

johannesbender wrote:
I think its all bs , they blatently accused bessler of fraud , they werent nearly as gentleman and considering of any proof at all .

You know JB I agree with you to an extent. But there is nuggets of information in Wagner’s attacks. The fact that Bessler doesn’t address the accusation is telling because he can't seem to suffer the slightest injury to his ego. Bessler always responded to even the smallest incorrect assumptions made by his critics, yet he remains silent on this particular accusation. This silence is like a fire alarm.

I am just going where the evidence, physics and logic takes me.

[Fletcher]

Fletcher: I am not aware I think of any other Borlach drawing that has external cranks added ? ..

We are stuck on wording. You might call them handles.

Axles don’t need handles they are cranks and they are curved to reduce stress in the direction of the curve. They attach to the pendulums.

Why do the mills of the same era not have the cranks?

I can just as easy call them handles, and have done - they have sometimes been called crank handles - to me they are linkages from the axle to "whatever" needs driving, or cams - when I was a young boy some cars still had crank handles to start the car ( the crank handle turned over the engine instead of a starter motor ) - much later we had a diesel water pump started by cranking the detachable handle shaped like B's. handles ( you had to watch for kickback and skinned a few knuckles ) - so whether they are cams, or cranks, or handles depends on what job you think they are doing .. B. was familiar with bell-cranks in his organ building days, squares and such .. however in DT he lists them as handles iinm ..

Whether anyone like jb thinks that G. and B. had it in for Bessler and made the crack lifting thing all up there is one solid concrete fact agreed by G. and B. and Bessler himself - that the support posts went from floor to ceiling, and as the Oct tests confirmed the wheel sat down in the open bearings and there was no internal crank transmission of external fores to crank over the wheel ..

[daxwc]

Fletcher: to me they are linkages from the axle to "whatever" needs driving, or cams - when I was a young boy some cars still had crank handles to start the car ( the crank handle turned over the engine instead of a starter motor ) - much later we had a diesel water pump started by cranking the detachable handle shaped like B's. handles ( you had to watch for kickback and skinned a few knuckles )

You are right they are attached to a replicating crank engine with a power stroke. But where is their use as linkages in mills in 1712? That isn’t something you usually transfer power by; usually it is gears, pulleys or belts. Big machinery with a crank handle… something else is going on.

[daxwc]

Notice Bessler calls the cranks part of the pendulums. Like they are a package.

From DT:
10. Cranks and pivots which are part of the pendulums.

My opinion indirect evidence that the external pendulums are real because Borlach also put those cranks also in his drawing.

[Fletcher]

Notice Bessler calls the cranks part of the pendulums. Like they are a package.

From DT:

10. Cranks and pivots which are part of the pendulums.

My opinion indirect evidence that the external pendulums are real because Borlach also put those cranks also in his drawing.

Kassel Wheel .. 9. Mechanism that gives movement to the pendulum.

Borlach drew in an a stick figure representation of an internal hidden split-axle with U crank handle to turn the wheel - presumably what he says he and Gartner witnessed as pillar movement suggested that idea as plausible to him sans any other driving method he could deduce, short of dogs or cats .. we can't know without other corroborating evidence ..

Of course it was thoroughly denounced at the Oct tests a few months later - but as i said the maid was still telling the same story years later - IF G. and B. had got to her, even after it was completely debunked, then I wonder what was theirs, or anybody's, motivation to stick with that storyline ? ..