Fletcher: “Of course it was thoroughly denounced at the Oct tests a few months later—but as I said, the maid was still telling the same story years later. If G. and B. had gotten to her, even after it was completely debunked, then I wonder what their or anybody's motivation to stick with that storyline was?”
The answer could be survival for the maid. She received three square meals and shelter in exchange for her false testimony and might have harbored feelings of revenge for being kicked out of Bessler's home after his wife died. Times were different back then; there was no welfare, and being put in the poor-house meant severe shame and hard work. It might have been better to be thought of as a liar.
As for Borlach and Wagner, they were likely driven by jealousy of Bessler's fame. Since they couldn't replicate his invention, they were convinced he was a fraud in some shape or form. Their inability to achieve what Bessler did might have fueled their skepticism and negative accusations. They were happy to abuse the maids situation.
Last edited by daxwc on Sat Feb 08, 2025 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don't think I'm necessarily right , it just does not click with me , perhaps its his explanation of what he saw because in my mind i interpret his explanation as something he used as ammunition to support his hidden crank theory , i just cant wrap my head around how he made the leap from a moving post or something to just an allegation of a hidden crank , sure the post could move i get it , but that leap is just to suspicious , however at the end of the day , i wasn't there , we weren't there .
It is strange to me how Bessler just added those external cranks too , why did he not address the other points .
Fletcher: “Of course it was thoroughly denounced at the Oct tests a few months later—but as I said, the maid was still telling the same story years later. If G. and B. had gotten to her, even after it was completely debunked, then I wonder what their or anybody's motivation to stick with that storyline was?”
The answer could be survival for the maid. She received three square meals and shelter in exchange for her false testimony and might have harbored feelings of revenge for being kicked out of Bessler's home after his wife died. Times were different back then; there was no welfare, and being put in the poor-house meant severe shame and hard work. It might have been better to be thought of as a liar.
As for Borlach and Wagner, they were likely driven by jealousy of Bessler's fame. Since they couldn't replicate his invention, they were convinced he was a fraud in some shape or form. Their inability to achieve what Bessler did might have fueled their skepticism and negative accusations. They were happy to abuse the maids situation.
To be honest , had i seen that wheel , i would likely suspect something too , but its best not to jump to conclusions of fraud , i would at least wonder and contemplate what might be happening inside the wheel , and conclude that i dont know whats happening instead of making that direct leap to fraud , and i feel like its a personality clash for me to believe much of anything they said.
Last edited by johannesbender on Sat Feb 08, 2025 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
johannesbender wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2025 3:21 pm
The way i showed is the way i understood the accusation , because of the single crank location in the single post on the drawing with the markings A and B on that particular side , the details sound murky , but i think the main point was an accusation of a human power driven crank force being shown via cracks opening up and showing a movement of the post.
johannesbender, I think that you did great. That is really impressive. I wish I could do that. I do not have to know how though, because I know you.
I see the post moving up & down as evidence of an out-of-balance motion in the wheel. When the mass is at one point, it's momentum is "lifting" the wheel; When the mass is at the opposite point, it's "pushing down". An out-of-balance flywheel or gyroscope would probably exhibit the same behavior. I suspect Bessler miscalculated making the weights (slightly heavier) in part of the wheel, but saw that it still ran just as well, and ignored it ("eh, close enough!" ;-)
"....the mechanism is so simple that even a wheel may be too small to contain it...."
"Sometimes the harder you look the better it hides." - Dilbert's garbageman
Wolf claims in his 'Impartial Comments on the Orffyrean Perpetuum Mobile,
prepared for His Majesty the Czar, Halle, 3rd July, 1722
that the axle was hollow:
"6. At present, I do not expect any special results from the machine. The one I saw had very thin journals and the axle was hollow; these two features were contributing to the fast rotation of the wheel, and so to its power when the wheel had to lift something. This would not be an acceptable feature in a wheel that was intended for serious development. Such a thin journal would quickly wear out and such a poor axle would soon break down. Besides, there is considerable difference between a machine that is used continuously for work, and one that is run for a moment or a few minutes to pull or lift something."
AP: "Ask about it, if you have touched my work,
And grasped its axle;
At once, you will be assured
That my axle is not as it seems,
Rather, it has many compartments;
Yes, through and through, various holes. NB.
He who understands even a little
Will see that my work now moves quite differently."
Worried about the thin journals and hollow axle. Is the letter in Orffyraeana?
Last edited by daxwc on Mon Feb 10, 2025 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JC's DT:
Chief instigator of these was Herr Andreas Gãrtner of Dresden,
otherwise a good wood-turner and carpenter. x. x. x.
Next was Johann George Borlach, Gãrtner’s hanger-on, in the
same trade as the above; also (some say) an (idle) miller. x. x.
(page 114)
Thirdly, Herr Christian Wagner, a student in Leipzig.
The first two, after their minds had become filled with the spirit,
not so much of Christian love, as of thoughtless defamation,
caused many copies of a scurrilous copper-engraving to be
spread far and wide – quite contrary to all the admirable local
laws against defamation of character. According to the
disgusting falsehoods perpetrated therein, the Orffyreus P.M.
wheel was, in fact, turned, via a sophisticated pulley
mechanism, by a hidden accomplice, and the accompanying
diagram, signed by the aforementioned Borlach, makes this all
very clear.
New Message
of the Curious and well-passed
Run-test
of the
newly built
Orffyre Perpetual Mobile,
on the Weissenstein castle near Cassel,
since 12 Novembre of the previous 1717th Year partly into the
(present)1718th Year, for 8 whole weeks:
To arrive at the nature of the machine along with its effect, it being similar
presently in appearance to the perpetual mobile shown in Merseburg. Even as
it must reside in a single chamber, it admittedly cannot have a diameter larger
than 12 shoes. Being present at this machine one will observe that such:
(1). It is half a shoe thicker than in Merseberg, so has a profile of one and a
half shoes.
(2). The axle is 6 shoes long and 8 inches on average.
(3). The large heavy oak timber stampers are made to stand at the wall, and
are raised by lifting slats.
(4). To each side is located a pendulum, which is to cause it to run more
slowly, yet they are often seen hanged away from the machine.
(5). Again, like in Merseburg, a heavy chest full of stones outside the castle,
will be drawn upwards very high to the window, pulled by a thread groove
mechanism.
(6). All Doubt of an external drive has by now become self evident, and
thereby dazed & so on.
So I don’t think that kills Fletcher’s concept. I think it actually enhances it. What better way to slow something down from 40+ RPM to say 10 RPM than to use part of the mechanism inside but out of phase. That you can take on or off in short time without having to rip the cladding off.
dax .. can you give the references and context please ..
There is no "A" and "B" in DT? What is going on?
What "A" and "B" are you referring to ?
The quote you provided referencing the pendulum hanging on the wall looks like is is from your downloads, as a pdf supplied by Tarseir79 - I can't find anything like it in DT so it must be another source or perhaps an alternative translation of the Latin or German ?
The quote you provided referencing the pendulum hanging on the wall looks like is is from your downloads, as a pdf supplied by Tarseir79 - I can't find anything like it in DT so it must be another source or perhaps an alternative translation of the Latin or German ?
Yes T79 supplied the translation. Not sure where he got it translated? Didn't he buy some? Can't remember. It is a totally different pamphlet or book from DT and as you can see 1718.
The pamphlet name was supplied there:
"New Message
of the Curious and well-passed
Run-test
of the
newly built
Orffyre Perpetual Mobile,
on the Weissenstein castle near Cassel,
since 12 Novembre of the previous 1717th Year partly into the
(present)1718th Year, for 8 whole weeks:"
That is the actual title. It used to be in our book library but I think got taken away with the website update.
Last edited by daxwc on Mon Feb 10, 2025 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is no “A” and “B” on the DT drawing for location of the crack movements.
I was looking for Borlach version when I found that the pendulums mostly sat on the wall.
