Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

[daxwc]

Here is ChatGPT translation:

Translation:
1.) Half a shoe thicker than the Meßburger, and thus, in profile, it holds the same shoe.
2.) The shaft is 6 shoes long and 8 inches in diameter.
3.) The filled heavy stampers, made of solid iron-wood, stand against the wall and are lifted with lifting slats.
4.) On each side, there is again a perpendicular, which gives the mechanism a slight or somewhat slower movement, but, as has often been observed, they can be detached and removed.
5.) Furthermore, as in Merseburg, a heavy box full of stones outside the castle is wound and pulled up very high by the machine through a pull to the window.
6.) Any doubts about an external force have now been evidently removed.

Otherwise, if the Chaldeans, Egyptians, quarrelsome, and argument-loving adventurers still want to boast of further natural doubts:

NB. With this, the matter regarding the money pouch should finally be settled, that the mocking arguments published in print should now cease, and not with 1000 Reichsthalers (which, compared to the known work and other considerations, is a small matter), but rather 10,000 Reichsthalers have been set against another 10,000 Reichsthalers, that the Orffrei... artistic wheel is indeed the much sought-after and desired work and artificial perpetual motion machine, quod durantem materiam &c., and thus a comparable invention.

[johannesbender]

file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/Lauff%20Prrobe%20(brought%20to%20you%20by%20Tarsier79).pdf

I don't know why it will not link automatically but if you copy and paste it into your web browser it will work.

Here is the pamphlet's location.

https://digital.slub-dresden.de/werkansicht/dlf/91822/6

https://katalog.slub-dresden.de/id/0-112404177X

Just to infom you , /// is to access local files at drive c: and tben the path to the file , its an address to your own file(it will only work for you if the file and path is also on your pc) ...

[daxwc]

JB: Just to infom you , /// is to access local files at drive c: and tben the path to the file , its an address to your own file(it will only work for you if the file and path is also on your pc) ...

LOL, you are right when I actually look at the address destination. Odd I took it off the forum. I would give it all but it isn’t mine to give.

It is at the bottom and T79 translated it:
https://besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopi ... 141#p81141
Anyway. I was happy to find it. I was beginning to think I was crazy. Imagine that a person who believes perpetual motion might be true worried about being crazy and what others think ;)


So there isn’t any doubt in my mind the pendulums are real:
1) The pendulum are on all the diagrams.
2) Pendulums are independently witnessed.
3) Borlach drawing has the crank handles also.

[daxwc]

ChatGPT: Here is the transcription of the text in the image:

(4) Zu jeder Seiten ist wieder ein Perpendicul befindlich, welche dem Wercke einen ægalen doch etwas langsamern Lauff geben, können aber, wie oft gesehen worden, ab- und weg gehänget werden.

Translation to English:
"(4) On each side, there is again a perpendicular, which gives the mechanism an equal yet somewhat slower movement, but they can, as has often been observed, be detached and removed."

This appears to describe a mechanical feature that influences the motion of a device, possibly related to Bessler's wheel. The term Perpendicul likely refers to a vertical or balancing component.

Google: (4) On each side there is a perpendicular, which gives the mechanism a constant but somewhat slower movement, but can, as has often been seen, be hung up and away.

[Fletcher]

Mornin dax .. below is Borlach's engraving of the Merseburg wheel viewd in July 1715, pre October translocation test ..

So there isn’t any doubt in my mind the pendulums are real:
1) The pendulum are on all the diagrams.
2) Pendulums are independently witnessed.
3) Borlach drawing has the crank handles also.

* There are no external crank handles as B. drew in his DT engravings of the Merseburg and Kassel wheels, and into his copy in DT of Borlach's original engraving sans handles but with the appearing and disappearing crack at " B " ..

The second attachment is a side by side comparison to show some of the changes in detail B. made ..

My question to you is one of mainly clarification ..

In the document you cite you seem sure it is an account of the authors physical sighting of the Kassel wheel and pendulums ..

Q. Is the author giving an account of what they personally witnessed or describing an engraving of the Kassel wheel from one of B's. documents ?

[daxwc]

Fletcher if you are asking about the author it doesn’t state one:
Leipzig, in the passage of the council house, in the boutique for Contoire Calendar, Year 1718

I feed it all into Copilot this is what it said:

Copilot: The document is written in the third person, which suggests it might not have been authored by Bessler himself. It seems more like a formal announcement or report, possibly written by someone else to document and promote Bessler's work and the events surrounding his perpetual motion machine.
The phrase "by instruction of your High Prince, Mr. Landgrave, Highness to Hesse-Cassel" suggests that Karl of Hesse-Cassel commissioned the test of the perpetual motion machine. It's likely that he also commissioned the creation of the pamphlet or document to formally announce and explain the test and its significance.

Q. In the document you cite you seem sure it is an account of the authors physical sighting of the Kassel wheel and pendulums ?
Q. Is the author giving an account of what they personally witnessed or describing an engraving of the Kassel wheel from one of B's. documents ?

The document you provided seems to describe the physical characteristics and operation of the Kassel wheel, along with details about the test and the presence of notable individuals. This suggests that the author may have personally witnessed the Kassel wheel and its operation. However, the text is written in a formal, somewhat promotional style, which makes it challenging to determine if the author is recounting their direct observations or simply summarizing information from other sources, such as engravings or reports.

Given the historical context and the formal tone, it’s likely that the document blends first-hand observations with information derived from engravings and Bessler's own descriptions. This would have been a common practice to lend credibility to the account and provide a comprehensive overview for readers.

As independent unbiased answer I can give.

[daxwc]

The document is written in the third person, which suggests it might not have been authored by Bessler himself. It seems more like a formal announcement or report, possibly written by someone else to document and promote Bessler's work and the events surrounding his perpetual motion machine.


After reading this is there any chance the pendulums don't exist or what are the odds they exist?

Copilot: "To each side is located a pendulum, which is to cause it to run more slowly, yet they are often seen hanged away from the machine."
This suggests that pendulums were indeed part of the machine's structure, although their exact function and effectiveness might have been subjects of debate. The phrase "often seen hanged away from the machine" implies that they might not always have been in use or visible.

DT didn’t come out till the year after 1719 which had the drawings of pendulums disconnected. If Bessler just sent him that first drawing then where would the author get the idea they are not always in use from? .

If it was Bessler why would he in the height of the sale bargaining be trying to put clues in? It makes no sense; in AP he says he has done nothing on the matter of getting information out; that is what MT is about.

"Dear Orffyreus, what will you do, then? Will you keep your skills to
yourself, and grow old with the secret?"

"No, my friend," I reply, "no need for that, for a man who has some
commonsense, and also God's helping hand, can make the proper
arrangements in matters of great importance such as this."

The word "can" implies potential action, which does give it a future-oriented feel. It suggests that Orffyreus believes he is capable of making the proper arrangements when the time comes.

[Fletcher]

There are a lot of ambiguities about the pendulums in DT ( published 1719 ) ..

The engraving of the Merseburg wheel ( certificates published in 1715 ) shows double opposed T pendulums in residence ..

The engravings of the Kassel wheel ( Karl's certificate says the long duration test was in May 1718 ) show the pendulums in different forms - in one disconnected and hanging down dual opposed pendulums without the T form - just a straight hanging pendulum and bob, no 3 weights - in the other, a single T pendulum but in this instance the T bracing goes up from the bob to the ends of the T and not from up closer to the T intersection as the Merseburg and GB engravings showed ..

In the Merseburg description ( 8 ) he says the pendulums are on each side to keep the machine running true ..

In the Kassel description ( p ) he says for use when the machine is to be operated slowly .. future tense ..

AFAIK there are no first hand witnesses who said they saw them attached and running with the wheel - in all the official tests of doing Work etc it is clear that they were not required to keep them running true - they had well recorded rpms under load and without load, a very regular rpm ..

If you want to slow the wheel down then apply a brake - if you want to make it run true then dual pendulums could be considered problematic and an ordinary flywheel might be a better choice - because the pendulums are connected to short crank handles, as they approach their highest arc swing position they brake the wheels rpm, then they accelerate it when the pendulum is driving downwards - this means the wheel is always changing rpm but has an average rpm - a flywheel would smooth out the rpm closer to the average rpm ..

I don't for a moment think B. would not include some form of provenance protection in his engravings, in the form of some mechanical action related ( albeit loosely ) to his runner solution - more so if when these were done the wheel was not under contract for sale - then flesh that out at a later stage ( in MT ), imo ..

[daxwc]

Fletcher: AFAIK there are no first hand witnesses who said they saw them attached and running with the wheel

First it was the pendulum don’t exist. They are recorded by someone as being a physical external apparatus. Now it is that nobody seen them on. How many times will the goalposts move 8)))

Ok, we don’t yet have anybody witness them on; I imagine it is there in all that information. You have no witness claim they are always off and I have no witness with them on.

Fletcher: - in all the official tests of doing Work etc it is clear that they were not required to keep them running true - they had well recorded rpms under load and without load, a very regular rpm .

.
Agreed; but I imagine he didn’t lie what they were for. Also nobody called him out on it and they were like wolves on a beaver.

4.) On each side, there is again a perpendicular, which gives the mechanism a slight or somewhat slower movement, but, as has often been observed, they can be detached and removed.

[daxwc]

You really think somebody would go through all the trouble of making physical pendulums. Having to put cranks and pillars to the roof on just to add a providence? Does that sound really logical?

[daxwc]

Reference about Perpetual Mobile of Joh. Ernesti Eliae Orffyrei.

The aetis A.1715 Among the new letters of January, p. 46 arrested mention the perpetual motion and in the fastest quomamik Orffyrce found not far from the town Ciza filo curious to specetandum Display. Assert to have been in the same place, together with the axis of the wheel is free to pendulam the external sensible to move quickly to go about from the motion of the mover of the quite a equabiliter absolutely refused to continue. There are, who have been bold enough to challenge preaclarum such an extent it was found and taxed. The paper is in the public a vision sent forth her youthful, no man, from the man in the room next to the wheel to be driven into the world, the hidden part was sitting on artisicio, & artisicium, to be shaken before the person had, the sky are stamped with which he had arranged. Cl. In the mean time, had retreated, and from the suburbs of the village of Drascmoiz Orffyreus Martisburgi in the country, where he built a Perpetuum Mobile a little majorisorma. The diameter of the twelve there was a plant of the feet, the thickness of the of the foot of one; Diameter of the axis of the cavity can only be 6 inches, the small axes of the saw in scarcely a fourth part of the One; weight 70 pounds, and that the motion to lessen in the course assrietum, by means of the machine appears in the other from insincerity, decelerate the.
In order, therefore, an insult to not only in words, but in actual fact to rend it asunder; d.31 of October in the praesantbus to the Commissioners, whom you by the Most Serene Duke of Saxony, Maurice Wilbelmo, he had sought and obtained, By the man muids has hitherto been published, and within these, the Acts of the mouth and the fame was born of a noble, nor the various & Mathematics A sloppy, July Bernbardi of the Robr, and governments of Ducalis of the assessor, the Dukes' and other senior officials of the Secretary of likewise; Men & kind & of gifts to the dignity and the learning of pracstantibus, among whom must be Wolffuim DIETERICI from the Bohsen, Friderieum Hoffmannum, a Physician 'a feast, to be a Christian Wolff, & Mencken of us have called it sussiciat, the wheel of the place, in the having admired the guard carried away, to be keeping the wall in an adjoining & all sides, the free woman was going the round. It is not dissenulabat Offyreus relative weights of machinain described above. And with regard to the weight of some of them it was possible to guess the circumstances were in the midst of the persorate & the springs of the line joining the points. Under the article on this subject in exscipta is a relation in the idiom of the German Printed by: By Bem Durch Den Zerrn Orffyreum glucllich inventirten Gruinblicber Berida the perpetual and by itself, the mobile, the where sanul structure to the external parts of the Table, Cyaneae fistirur. In fact, when the oil has an abundance of people, there is no external force on a sensible, marchinarn described above; there were some who call into question the voearent, the movement of the permanent priority of. They said it was that He can be constructed from the wheels, the force of which passes through a given strusture meanwhile to make the rounds for some time, but with an absolute motion, like the hands of the clocks may be a need, from the reanimentur, and the said siderum saciebatur, the wheels istiusmmodi from this construction. However, this objection is reimbursed by the year preasenti Orffyreo, who now lives in Caffellis, the Serene Hesse Landgrafio Dianne drawn and appropriate Consdiarii contmerciorum increased. That is, the most serene prince of mercy at any outbreaks of indulged himself in, so that the machine be located in a room in a certain Area in Weiffenfteinenenfis of his own soul: which when he saw his suisset, taking care of things & of mechanics devoted to you, and the same was highly skilled, he commanded it to be sealed the chamber, occhidi & d.12 Novembr.A 1717. Came again to crush observed with some Ministers of d 26 November. & Resignato room and a pert motion of the machine are still the same, just before he would. And commanded that the doors of the apartment, and, therefore, again to cover the sea, and the obsiguari Ferrestras, and with the removal of the seals D.4 of January of this present year, what things are sound and secure, agnoscebansur, the chamber, to be opened jussislet, still at the wheel of Orffreanam moturn the usual celesitate contnuare that he saw. So, no hesitation.

November, 1718.
The prince of love for the sciences Mathemateas, first of all in public haesub own account, and with the seal of attesari propensissimus of mechanics, at the same time siden his own to that effect, that the man has not such a machine and stenctura, which reanimari have no work therein. Furthermore, these opportunity of improving the sphalma tyochetae that has crept into the lexicon of the trial Aclis A1717 p.92 WOLF machines Orffyreanum mathematician recounted. We read muids in the same place, for He is forever the movable Wolfrum to have the same purely mechanical engineer, who, when he might better be read for oneself, it is not purely a mechanical engineer,. In fact, explicitly warns its lexicon has yet to be demonstrated that no external sluidum fine (no matter what it finally DC) in the motion of the machine can flow in.

ChatGPT: The mention of a pendulum appears in the following part of the text:
"Assert to have been in the same place, together with the axis of the wheel is free to pendulam the external sensible to move quickly to go about from the motion of the mover of the quite a equabiliter absolutely refused to continue."

This phrasing is garbled, likely due to poor translation. However, "pendulam" seems to be a reference to a pendulum or something swinging. The surrounding words suggest a description of the wheel's motion. If we reconstruct the meaning, it might be stating that the wheel and its axis were free, and something external (possibly a pendulum) moved in response to it.

However, historical descriptions of Orffyreus’ wheel do not typically mention pendulums as a driving mechanism. Instead, some theories propose that the wheel relied on shifting weights inside. The confusion here could arise from the Latin/German source text misinterpreted into English.

The document you're referring to was written by Christian Wagner in 1715. Wagner was a contemporary of Johann Bessler and provided a detailed account of Bessler's perpetual motion machine and the surrounding events.

[Fletcher]

First it was the pendulum don’t exist. They are recorded by someone as being a physical external apparatus. Now it is that nobody seen them on. How many times will the goalposts move 8)))

Ok, we don’t yet have anybody witness them on; I imagine it is there in all that information. You have no witness claim they are always OFF and I have no witness with them ON.

I give weight to the first hand Certificates signed by the signatories including Karl - none mention them either ON, OFF, or able to be fitted ..

I give weight to all the first person correspondence letters written about all 4 wheels that we have access to - none mention them either ON, OFF, or able to be fitted ..

I give much less weight to B's. own published works describing them and their reasons for being, without independent verification - I do not give much weight to newspaper articles and publications ( such as the 1718 pamphlet ) that are not authored and signed by an individual, because there is no assurance that it wasn't promotional material in part sourced from B. that they are reproducing to pad the article out .. due diligence .. in that particular pamphlet the mention of pendulums is in list form and not quoting a person or source ..

Fletcher: - in all the official tests of doing Work etc it is clear that they were not required to keep them running true - they had well recorded rpms under load and without load, a very regular rpm .

.

Agreed; but I imagine he didn’t lie what they were for. Also nobody called him out on it and they were like wolves on a beaver. Well, if you hadn't seen them in the storage room you would not have much reason to call him out on at face value innocuous things, tho you might wonder why he needed 2 - you might also wonder why he needed crank handles to drive them when as you said earlier a cog and belt/chain drive would be quite normal and easy to do ..

4.) On each side, there is again a perpendicular, which gives the mechanism a slight or somewhat slower movement, but, as has often been observed, they can be detached and removed.

From the pamphlet, source unknown ..

You really think somebody would go through all the trouble of making physical pendulums. Having to put cranks and pillars to the roof on just to add a providence? Does that sound really logical?

There is no evidence of pendulums having been made, used, or in storage - same for the crank handles - you only have B's. accounts of them ..

However there is independent evidence of support posts going to the ceiling ..

So if the pendulums were either fictitious ( but drawn ), or real for that matter, then to me it would be entirely logical to do that in advance if at a later date he had to prove his provenance to a mechanical solution to a runner ..

ETA .. a better translation of Wagners original about the hsitory of B. and his wheels, including the Certificate raised for the Oct Merseburg test signed by the signatories could answer the question about whether they were real or not - maybe even if they were ever seen working with ANY wheel ..

[Fletcher]

From Wagner's 1715 Critique ..

Finally, Herr Orffyreus is officially requested to fulfill his promise made in the general Leipziger Zeitung and let his 6-ell wheel run continuously for 8 days in the presence of persons mentioned above. It is not necessary that he situate it in an open field; rather, the run can suitably take place at the location where the wheel now stands; he can free himself from all suspicions of external pulling or driving if he, as he himself has offered, screws out the journals and allows the journal bearings and posts to be inspected closely. Perhaps the whole experiment would end after the lapse of 24 hours.

B. had not fulfilled his promise for whatever reason - I think one of the conditions was to run it in an open field - this condition was recanted, and the promise was duly fulfilled as the Merseburg translocation tests indoors - the journals were to be screwed out and the bearings inspected, recorded Wagner ..

[daxwc]

"Reference about Perpetual Mobile of Joh. Ernesti Eliae Orffyrei." is a separate pamphlet again of Wagner's then the two so called wagner_critique_1 + 2.

[daxwc]

I give much less weight to B's. own published works describing them and their reasons for being, without independent verification - I do not give much weight to newspaper articles and publications ( such as the 1718 pamphlet ) that are not authored and signed by an individual, because there is no assurance that it wasn't promotional material in part sourced from B.that they are reproducing to pad the article out .. due diligence .. in that particular pamphlet the mention of pendulums is in list form and not quoting a person or source ..

You do not give much credence to newspaper accounts? But you give credence to Wagner who only seen the wheel once but pulls all his evidence off rumours and newspapers? Tell me again how that works????