Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Roxaway,
J'ai terminé le montage de la roue à excentrique intérieur.
Pour l'instant elle reste en équilibre, je dois augmenter les poids sur les leviers excentrés car je la sens prête à partir.
mais c'est peut être une illusion!

Hello Roxaway,
I have finished the assembly of the inner eccentric wheel.
For now it remains in balance, I have to increase the weights on the eccentric levers because I feel it ready to go.
but it may be an illusion!

[Roxaway59]

Hi Gregory / Fletcher, I didn't realise that I had made that sim so small and that is accidental because I usually make my wheels about 2 metres. Anyway thanks for shedding more light on that.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Shadow all I can say is wow that is amazing that you did that.

If it was me I would still be scratching my head wondering how to put it together.

I cant thank you enough for your efforts.

lets hope that during your experiments it does something unexpected.

Graham

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Roxaway,
J'ai ajouté des poids comme sur la pièce jointe mais la roue reste statique!

Hello Roxaway,
I added weights as on the attachment but the wheel remains static!

[daxwc]

Well done Shadow; impressive!

[Roxaway59]

Hi Shadow, I have been a little distracted because our cat died yesterday and I have been feeling very down. He was my pal.

Can I ask if you can keep your experiment for a while because there may be some modifications that may produce interesting results and I am continuing to explore certain possibilities.

Once again thanks for doing a real experiment.

Graham

[SHADOW]

Ok Roxaway!
Je la met de coté!
Désolé pour votre chat, le mien s'appelait Shadow c'était la fille de la famille!

Ok Roxaway!
I put it aside!
Sorry for your cat, mine was called Shadow it was the family daughter!

[Roxaway59]

Hi Shadow, I am assuming that is why you use the name Shadow?

This is a strange coincidence because the one we had that just passed away was called Tommy and the one that passed away before that was called Shadow.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

Sometimes whilst working on this enigma its easy to reach a point where someone can say to themselves there are no more clues to thrash out in order to make progress.

Its true that there are only so many items to go off in the Bessler story to help glean new incites and I suspect for most of us those incites mean different things to us.

There is one I would like to share that I think is important in a number of ways.

The way that the witnesses described the movement of the bidirectional wheel when moving it from a stationary position.

Everything about that movement of the wheel would have felt unnatural. In our everyday life we sometimes feel that sensation because of some of the motor assist devices that we use.

I sometimes ride an electric bike and that’s the same kind of sensation as the motor kicks in and helps me to pedal.

As Besslers wheel was moved no more than an eight of a turn a knocking sound would be heard as weights changed position and this is what then gave more torque to the wheel.

The others would then change position in quick succession with the wheel quickly accelerating as the wheel turned.

I suspect that when the wheel was moved from stand still there was no negative torque but more of a balanced feel like when a flywheel is put in motion but it may also be possible that there was some positive torque right from the moment the wheel moved but either way I’m thinking the main pulsing of torque came from the shifting of the weights eight times per revolution.

This kind of action is alien to the wheels we very often build.

Most builds do not include a knocking sound because very often there is no impact.

Should we be ever trying to make a wheel that doesn’t have an impact as part of the over balance system?

Shouldn’t we be trying to introduce a collision that benefits the over balance and adds torque?

I wouldn’t have thought that we are spoilt for choice about how a working over balanced wheel works and if the only man in history to successfully make one felt it necessary to have knocking noises then I don’t think we are going to improve on his design.

So all our wheels must have them and each time the weights move there must be a pulse of torque given to the wheel followed by at least a coasting effect to take the wheel to the next shifting of the weights.

I say at least a coasting effect but in reality the torque would still be there in-between the weights shifting.

Graham

[Roxaway59]

I know in the past on this topic certain mechanisms have been posted about and one of these was an escapement mechanism. This has been debated as a possible source of the knocking sound.

I asked Copilot about this and this is part of the discussion.

Speculate for me. This is a gravity wheel that worked. It constantly over balanced itself obtaining a positive form of hysteresis. On the descending side there was always a knocking sound 8 times per revolution. The mechanisms that produced the knocking sound gave the wheel a pulse of torque but the torque remained even between the pulses. Speculate on the mechanisms creating this effect.

Copilots 6th speculation.

Resonance or Harmonic Oscillations: A resonant system could be involved, where parts of the wheel oscillate in harmony with its rotation. The knocks could be points of resonance, where kinetic energy aligns and provides torque without disrupting the wheel's motion.

I wrote.

I like this speculation - Resonance or Harmonic Oscillations: A resonant system could be involved, where parts of the wheel oscillate in harmony with its rotation. The knocks could be points of resonance, where kinetic energy aligns and provides torque without disrupting the wheel's motion.

Copilots response.

I'm glad you liked that idea! Resonance is such a fascinating concept—it can amplify energy in ways that seem almost magical. In this scenario, the knocking could act as synchronization points, where oscillating internal components match the natural frequency of the wheel's rotation. This alignment would minimize energy loss and maximize the force contributing to the wheel's motion.

Imagine parts like small masses, springs, or even pendulum-like systems inside the wheel, finely tuned to resonate with its movement. At specific intervals, these components might "snap" into their ideal positions, creating that knocking sound and injecting a pulse of torque. Over time, this harmony could maintain an even rotational motion, provided any energy loss (from sound or friction) is balanced out.

It's almost like an orchestra where every part plays its note at just the right time—beautifully coordinated, efficient, and dynamic. Do you think this could inspire a prototype or further experimentation? I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on refining such a concept!

I wrote.

Merge this idea with an escapement mechanism.

Copilots response.

Ah, combining the concept of resonance with an escapement mechanism—that's a clever direction! Let’s speculate how these two ideas could work together synergistically.

An escapement mechanism could regulate the oscillatory components of the system, ensuring that they remain in harmony with the wheel's rotation. Here's how the integration might work:

Resonant Components Driving the Wheel: Inside the wheel, you could have oscillating masses or harmonic components—such as small pendulums or springs—that resonate with the wheel's rotation. These components would provide periodic pulses of energy, synchronized to amplify the wheel's motion.

Escapement for Synchronization: The escapement mechanism could act as a timing device to control the release of energy from the resonant components. As the wheel rotates, the escapement ensures that each oscillatory element delivers its torque pulse precisely at the right moment. This could align with the natural rhythm of the wheel, keeping it overbalanced and maintaining constant torque.

Knocking Mechanism: The knocking sound might come from the escapement interacting with the resonant components—perhaps as a locking and releasing action. For example:

A lever could temporarily "catch" the oscillating masses, storing their potential energy.

When released by the escapement, this energy could be transferred to the wheel as a torque pulse, creating a knock in the process.

Energy Flow and Continuity: To maintain continuous motion, the escapement would recycle the energy efficiently. Between the pulses, the resonant system would oscillate freely, building up its next round of energy to be released at the optimal moment. The key would be to minimize losses from friction, heat, or noise.

This hybrid mechanism could combine the controlled precision of the escapement with the dynamic, self-reinforcing effects of resonance. The result? A system that feels almost alive, pulsing with rhythmic energy.

Graham

[Gregory]

The way that the witnesses described the movement of the bidirectional wheel when moving it from a stationary position.

Everything about that movement of the wheel would have felt unnatural. In our everyday life we sometimes feel that sensation because of some of the motor assist devices that we use.

I sometimes ride an electric bike and that’s the same kind of sensation as the motor kicks in and helps me to pedal.

As Besslers wheel was moved no more than an eight of a turn a knocking sound would be heard as weights changed position and this is what then gave more torque to the wheel.

The others would then change position in quick succession with the wheel quickly accelerating as the wheel turned.

I suspect that when the wheel was moved from stand still there was no negative torque but more of a balanced feel like when a flywheel is put in motion but it may also be possible that there was some positive torque right from the moment the wheel moved but either way I’m thinking the main pulsing of torque came from the shifting of the weights eight times per revolution.

This kind of action is alien to the wheels we very often build.

Or maybe the wheel was actually not really an overbalanced wheel, or at least not the usual way.
It was Willem Jacob 'sGravesande who said that he rotated it by hand very slowly, turned 1-2 turns like that, then keep away his finger and the wheel stopped. After that he did the same thing again just with little bit more speed, and said that this time he felt the wheel starting to push forward...

That is a very weird and unintuitive action for a wheel to have like that.
And it does not sounds like a normal OOB wheel at all, but something more mysterious. I think this is one of the most interesting eyewitness descriptions. Folks usually explain this by some engaging/disengaging trick when the wheel is started. But somehow I find this reasoning unclear or incomplete.

[Roxaway59]

Hi Gregory, this kind of statement is what I wish people would throw at me more often because although I have read a lot in the past I have a memory like a sieve for some details and these little details can give vital clues.

The ability to rotate the wheel slowly without it taking off also suggests that fraud was not involved.

It suggests that the wheel had to be going at a certain rpm before the centrifugal forces could make the mechanisms adopt their correct position for over balancing to take place.

Is there ever any mention of the knocking not taking place at low speed?

Graham

[Fletcher]

The detail ..

The record .. Witness Reports wrt the 'Kassel' Wheel - ( highlighting and emphasis etc mine .. )

Letter from Willem Jacob 'sGravesande to Sir Isaac Newton, 1721

The inventor has a turn for mechanics, but is far from being a profound mathematician, and yet his machine has something in it prodigiously astounding, even though it should be an imposition. The following description of the external parts of the machine, the inside of which the inventor will not permit to be seen, lest anyone should rob him of his secret. It is a hollow wheel or kind of drum, about fourteen inches thick, and twelve feet in diameter; being very light as it consists of several pieces of wood framed together; the whole of which is covered over with canvas, to prevent the inside from being seen. Through the centre of this wheel or drum runs an axle of about six inches diameter, terminated at both ends by iron bearings of about three-quarters of an inch diameter upon which the whole thing turns. I have examined these bearings, and am firmly persuaded that nothing from without the wheel in the least contributes to its motion. When I turned it but gently, it always stood still as soon as I took my hand away. But when I gave it any tolerable degree of velocity, I was always obliged to stop it again by force; for when I let it go, it acquired in two or three turns its greatest velocity, after which it revolved at twenty-five or twenty-six times a minute. This motion was preserved some time ago for two months, in an apartment of the castle; the door and windows of which were locked and sealed, so that there was no possibility of fraud. At the expiration of that time, His Serene Highness ordered the apartment to be opened, and the machine stopped, lest, as it was only a model, the parts might suffer by so much testing. The Landgrave being, himself, present during my examination of this machine, I took the liberty to ask him, as he had seen the inside of it, whether, after being in motion for a certain time, some alteration was made in the component parts; or whether one of these parts might be suspected of concealing some fraud; on which His Serene Highness assured me to the contrary, and that the machine was very simple...'

Letter from Joseph Fischer to J.T. Desaguliers, 1721

It is a wheel which is twelve feet in diameter, covered with an oil-cloth. At every turn of the wheel can be heard the sound of about eight weights, which fall gently on the side towards which the wheel turns. This wheel turns with astonishing rapidity, making twenty-six turns in a minute, when the axle works unrestricted. Having tied a cord to the axle, to turn an Archimedean screw for raising water, the wheel then made twenty turns a minute. This I noted several times by my watch, and I always found the same regularity. I then stopped the wheel with much difficulty, holding on to the circumference with both hands. An attempt to stop it suddenly would raise a man from the ground.
Having stopped it in this manner, it remained stationary (and this Sir, is the greatest proof of it being a Perpetual Motion), I commenced the movement very gently to see if it would of itself regain its former rapidity, which I doubted, believing as they said in London, that it only preserved for a long time the impetus of the impulse first communicated. But to my astonishment I observed that the rapidity of the wheel augmented little by little until it had made two turns, and then it regained its former speed, until I observed by my watch that it made the same twenty-six turns a minute as before, when acting freely; and twenty turns when it was attached to the screw to raise water.
This experiment, Sir, showing the rapidity of the wheel augmenting from the very slow movement I gave it, to an extraordinary rapid one, convinces me more that if I had seen the wheel moving for a whole year, which would not have persuaded me that it was perpetual motion, because it might have diminished little by little until it ceased altogether; but to gain speed instead of losing it, and to increase that speed to a certain degree in spite of the resistance of air and the friction of the axles, I do not see how anyone can doubt the truth of this action. I then turned it in the opposite direction, and the wheel produced the same effect. I examined the bearings of this wheel to see if there was any hidden artifice; but was unable to see anything more than the two small bearings on which the wheel is suspended at its centre.
His Highness, who possesses all the qualities that a great prince should have, has always had consideration for the inventor, and will not use the machine in any way for fear of the secret being discovered before the inventor had received a reward from foreigners. His Highness, who has a perfect understanding of mathematics, assured me that the machine is so simple that a carpenter's boy could understand and make it after having seen the inside of this wheel, and that he would not risk his name in giving these attestations, if he did not have knowledge of the machine...'

[Roxaway59]

Yes Fletcher this part -

When I turned it but gently, it always stood still as soon as I took my hand away.

Is the part I remember but I always took it to mean it wasn't necessarily a full rotation but he probably does mean that.
Its a shame he didn't mention knocking sounds when it was turned slowly because I think they would have been there.

Graham

[Gregory]

Hi Gregory, this kind of statement is what I wish people would throw at me more often because although I have read a lot in the past I have a memory like a sieve for some details and these little details can give vital clues.

The ability to rotate the wheel slowly without it taking off also suggests that fraud was not involved.

It suggests that the wheel had to be going at a certain rpm before the centrifugal forces could make the mechanisms adopt their correct position for over balancing to take place.

Is there ever any mention of the knocking not taking place at low speed?

Graham

Hi Graham,

No, there was no mention of any knocking sound or behaviour from sGravesande's report. Perhaps he didn't think about that as an important detail. But most likely you can't hear anything like that when the wheel is rotated at slow speed.

Lately, I re-read the eyewitness testimonies from this new site:
https://www.besslerrad.com/home/bessler ... witnesses/

It would be interesting to look on the german text (if there is one) of this specific part where the wheel was turned slowly. But likely he turned more than just a couple of degrees, possibly a whole turn or more, at least I had this feeling while reading sGravesande's report.

Yes, this special action of the Kassel wheel potentially suggests some kind of gravitationally balanced structure, and might be a hint towards CF/Inertia type of concepts. I always considered this a real possibility, and still do. CF/Inertia concepts can offer a different perspective, and most interesting to study, I think.

On the other hand it is also possible to note, that a wheel with a swarm of small pendular/swinger type of masses organized around the perimeter, just hanging... that could also produce this strange "hoovering effect". When rotated slowly without a notable acceleration, the small masses won't oscillate much and won't noticeably change or interfere with the rotation. But then how the wheel or all the swingers know when to stay OBB and when to hang just straight down? Based on speed, but how?