Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

A Bessler, gravity, free-energy free-for-all. Registered users can upload files, conduct polls, and more...

Moderator: scott

Post Reply
User avatar
Tarsier79
Addict
Addict
Posts: 5196
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:17 am
Location: Qld, Australia

Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by Tarsier79 »

If the journals screwed out so the wheel could be translocated or inspected, it would not be a good place to drive a pendulum from.
User avatar
daxwc
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7703
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:35 am

Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by daxwc »

Tarsier79 : If the journals screwed out so the wheel could be translocated or inspected, it would not be a good place to drive a pendulum from.
The journals are not the crank handles/ axle
A plain bearing or Journal is a solid sleeve inside which a shaft is expected to rotate with acceptable precision (location and guidance) and no metallic contact.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=plain+bea ... e0&pc=U531
The journal is the brass contact surface made to wear; so you don't damage the shaft but always just replace the journal/bearing. So if the sleeve actually screwed out what does that mean? I assumed the was little keeper bolts? They would be underneath the shaft and indented into the brass a ways and when the journal wore down too much the bolt would start making contact with the shaft making a hell of a squealing signalling you need to change the bearings or ruin the shaft. I could be wrong. Having the bearings made to be pulled out for translocation meant no C or G cut in pillar?

The brass in the picture is the journal.
Attachments
waterwheelbearing.jpg
waterwheelbearing.jpg (24.8 KiB) Viewed 900 times
Last edited by daxwc on Wed Feb 12, 2025 12:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What goes around, comes around.
User avatar
daxwc
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7703
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:35 am

Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by daxwc »

You do bring up a good question about the axle/crank handles T79. Stewart made his concept off MT 62. You can see in the big mills the wood is banded together unless this locked them in somehow.

You might be right that maybe would make the pendulums not really for long time running but maybe tuning. Need a static position balance.
1) Bessler has made the pillars specifically to have something to hang the pendulums off of.
2) Or the pendulums are a diversion for the pillars/posts.

Which came first the chicken or the egg.
Attachments
001.jpg
What goes around, comes around.
User avatar
daxwc
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7703
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:35 am

Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by daxwc »

I don't think the axle screws in. It is more like the axle above and has a plate in the other plane that is banded in.
Attachments
001.jpg
What goes around, comes around.
User avatar
Fletcher
Addict
Addict
Posts: 8715
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:03 am
Location: NZ

Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by Fletcher »

daxwc wrote:
1) Bessler has made the pillars specifically to have something to hang the pendulums off of. OK, let's assume for the moment that floor to ceiling support posts are the most space efficient way to hang 2 pendulums and maximize the available axle surface to drive other machinery from that axle ..

2) Or the pendulums are a diversion for the pillars/posts. Let's also have a look at that ..

Which came first the chicken or the egg.
The dual pendulums are very prominent, and can't be missed in the engravings - in those engravings he shows his wheels performing various work and labour saving tasks, like lifting things like a crane does, running a stamper, lifting water - it is unmissable that he is suggesting the utility and value of his wheels to perform manual tasks - iow's, it is worth his asking price and its value is far more than just an interesting oddity - it can do real work ! - oddly imo, he includes in these same engravings a couple of APPARENTLY ESSENTIAL pendulums which are not doing any work or labour saving task - furthermore we know from witness reports that the various wheels performed work tasks without any trouble or need for pendulums to be attached .. some have speculated that their real purpose for inclusion was as a pointer to a hidden code or cipher to be decoded which then leads to a special runner mechanism and so his provenance is established in this two step once removed process ..

.................

Ok dax .. you win :))) the pendulums can be real or not - it doesn't matter a jot to me whether they were real or not - I was simply trying to connect them back to B. and his runners for more than slowing a wheel down, or regulating its motion - I'll stop doing that ..

From now on I'll just stick to my imagination and the Toy's Page lol ..
Last edited by Fletcher on Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
johannesbender
Addict
Addict
Posts: 2536
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:29 pm
Location: not important

Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by johannesbender »

Imo , they would be better speed reducers than some sort of brake , they wont vary in speed reduction due to things like wear and tear and other material factors , pendulums are good at being precise by virtue of predictability or rather known calculation , a brake cannot compare imo.

Could they be more than that , why not ?
A pendulum can be a part of a machine just like they are part of clocks and like levers and simple machines can be too.
Its all relative.
SHADOW
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 742
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:16 pm
Location: France

Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by SHADOW »

Sémantiquement l'œuf était là avant la poule,
De la même manière qu'un verre n'est jamais à moitié vide!

Semantically the egg was there before the hen,
In the same way that a glass is never half empty!
La propriété, c'est le vol!
P.J. PROUDHON
User avatar
daxwc
Addict
Addict
Posts: 7703
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:35 am

Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by daxwc »

Fletcher: some have speculated that their real purpose for inclusion was as a pointer to a hidden code or cipher to be decoded which then leads to a special runner mechanism and so his provenance is established in this two step once removed process ..
That is what I used to believe. But I changed my mind. Unfortunately it was you that did that ;) Obviously if you have a device that has potential of working I could change that.

Fletcher: Ok dax .. you win :))) the pendulums can be real or not - it doesn't matter a jot to me whether they were real or not - I was simply trying to connect them back to B. and his runners for more than slowing a wheel down, or regulating its motion - I'll stop doing that ..
You know very well my position; that the pendulums were real and not always for show. They could be for provenance depends if the interior was exactly same function.

JB: Imo , they would be better speed reducers than some sort of brake , they wont vary in speed reduction due to things like wear and tear and other material factors , pendulums are good at being precise by virtue of predictability or rather known calculation , a brake cannot compare imo.

Could they be more than that , why not ?
My opinion exactly; say for some reason he needs the RPM down to 10 RPM and the pendulums are out of phase to the inside drum ones. Yes some of the energy is going into the flywheel effect and slow inertia build up but it limits speed if the pendulums are much smaller weight.

Whatever the pendulums are for it is not long duration. You would build something more structurally sound; but I believe they are physically real. The biggest clues are the pillars to the roof. Nobody would build it like that you would build a long base and screw it to the floor.

My opinion; nobody has to agree with me.
Last edited by daxwc on Wed Feb 12, 2025 11:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What goes around, comes around.
User avatar
Fletcher
Addict
Addict
Posts: 8715
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:03 am
Location: NZ

Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by Fletcher »

dax wrote:... Whatever the pendulums are for it is not long duration. You would build something more structurally sound; but I believe they are physically real. The biggest clues are the pillars to the roof. Nobody would build it like that, you would build a long base and screw it to the floor.

My opinion; nobody has to agree with me.
We are all free to have opinions and believe what ever we want - if I have reliable evidence, I know ..

Pst - I have a great gold mine for sale lol ..
User avatar
Gregory
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 599
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:33 pm
Location: Europe

Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by Gregory »

Fletcher wrote: I usually drink pints of 'Speights' on a Friday night as I play some pool - so last night I changed my first pint to an old favourite when I was a young man, 'Lion Red' - then just kept on going with it lol ..
Great! I also like to play pool (as well as chess), sure adds up for a great Friday night with friends!
I looked up Speight's, has good line-up of different beers... I'm sure Lion Red served as a good memory enhancer, cheers! :)


About the support posts/pillars...
I had a strange idea for some time. What if a hanging weight can be placed inside the post? And with a hidden crank it could be periodically lifted and lowered as the wheel turns. I don't think there is much reality to this, and not entirely sure what that can be good for... balancing, or borrowing/repaying momentum at the right time? Just a random thought...

I got another idea...
After reading pages of discussions about the T-pendulum, I have the impression that the pendulums can be some kind of diagnostic device. Bessler might used those to fine tune something inside the wheel. Like fine tuning the orientation/settings of individual mechanisms compared to actual wheel position, etc... And when the pendulums were attached it was probably easier/faster to go around with the wheel and fine tune everything. Also, perhaps the internal mechs can have different settings for different tasks. Power, speed, stability, etc...
The pendula might be also useful to help measure rotational position while adjusting/repairing things, like a separate indicator for 180 and 90 degree positions of rotation. So, my take... It has to be some kind of diagnostic device. For testing, probing, checking, adjusting, fine tuning mech components, as well as wheel performance, etc.

An additional idea is to measure/test for positional balance when static, and/or operational balance while the wheel is running. Maybe the wheel operation by default will produce a periodical acceleration/deceleration, and by attaching the pendulum Bessler can smooth this out, or look for unevenness, various patterns, defective behaviour, whatever... Again, that also falls under the category of diagnostics.
Last edited by Gregory on Thu Feb 13, 2025 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
johannesbender
Addict
Addict
Posts: 2536
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:29 pm
Location: not important

Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by johannesbender »

What can be said about this enigma , either Bessler was a con artist or a genius , if he was a con artist then we must be stupid since none has ever reproduced or shown a method to reproduce the con , and if hw was a genius then we must be stupid too , hopefully we stop being stupid soon.
Its all relative.
User avatar
Gregory
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 599
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:33 pm
Location: Europe

Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by Gregory »

johannesbender wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 10:21 am What can be said about this enigma , either Bessler was a con artist or a genius , if he was a con artist then we must be stupid since none has ever reproduced or shown a method to reproduce the con , and if hw was a genius then we must be stupid too , hopefully we stop being stupid soon.
A few times before I had this strange thought, like a script for a psychological drama and biography type of movie...
Let's assume Bessler was actually a great craftsman, a believer, a madman... But driven by madness, bitterness and blind belief he finally turned into a broken man, a genius con artist...

Then the most weird outcome of his story and all the events, of cause and effect and history could be...
That inspired by Bessler's story, one day someone in the future came up with an actual working device B. could only dreamed of.

Just hypothetical, playing different parallel worlds in imagination...
But what a crazy chain of events, cause and effect would that be?
Last edited by Gregory on Thu Feb 13, 2025 11:19 am, edited 5 times in total.
User avatar
Fletcher
Addict
Addict
Posts: 8715
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:03 am
Location: NZ

Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by Fletcher »

Gregory wrote:
About the support posts/pillars...

I had a strange idea for some time. What if a hanging weight can be placed inside the post? And with a hidden crank it could be periodically lifted and lowered as the wheel turns. I don't think there is much reality to this, and not entirely sure what that can be good for... balancing, or borrowing/repaying momentum at the right time? Just a random thought... I think we have all had those thoughts at one time or another - then we think nah, that's zero sum; and the translocation tests and careful checking of the supports and bearings debunk that possibility so out with the mind candy and back to the drawing board ;7) ..

I got another idea...

After reading pages of discussions about the T-pendulum, I have the impression that the pendulums can be some kind of diagnostic device. Bessler might use those to fine tune something inside the wheel. Like fine tuning the orientation/settings of individual mechanisms compared to actual wheel position, etc... And when the pendulums were attached it was probably easier/faster to go around with the wheel and fine tune everything. Also, perhaps the internal mechs can have different settings for different tasks. Power, speed, stability, etc...

The pendula might be also useful to help measure rotational position while adjusting/repairing things, like a separate indicator for 180 and 90 degree positions of rotation.

So, my take... It has to be some kind of diagnostic device. For testing, probing, checking, adjusting, fine tuning mech components, as well as wheel performance, etc.

An additional idea is to measure/test for positional balance when static, and/or operational balance while the wheel is running. Maybe the wheel operation by default will produce a periodical acceleration/deceleration, and by attaching the pendulum Bessler can smooth this out, or look for unevenness, various patterns, defective behaviour, whatever... Again, that also falls under the category of diagnostics. Very possibly Greg .. we know they can't be for doing any real Work - so to be included in the engraving drawings they had to have some purpose to be in there - sometimes they are attached directly to the floor to ceiling wheel support posts, and sometimes shown attached to their own floor to ceiling support posts additional to the wheel floor to ceiling support posts - and for me that raised the question that if they are supported independently of the wheel supports then why do the wheel supports need to go to all the way to the ceiling - indeed why do the independent pendulum support posts need to go to the ceiling since as 2 vertical posts with a cross connector they could just make a braced box section bolted to the floor ..

For me I generally follow the A, B, C rule ..

A. Assume Nothing ..
B. Believe Nothing ..
C. Check Everything ..

I have to believe what B. said about the interior of his wheels because there is no detailed evidence to the contrary - and Karl said it was genuine and was simple, and he was surprised no one else had built it before B.

We have independent evidence of the work tests his wheels performed, so I believe that ..

My next task when time allows will be to draw up my upgraded wheel format, with one to multiple internal prime Movers ( crosses, pulls, and weights ) - it will be in schematic form, and then we can go on from there ..

I will say this before I post those schematics, because I think a little pre-warning will help later understanding - as was said recently in a post it is not just a brute force lifting wheel ..

* If what I suggested was his first POP wheel, and it had an external pump and dump Pendulum, with internal one-way swingers, and B. said it turned " a little " then those sims also fit-the-bill of a lackluster performance ..

* My "bells and whistles" upgrade has internal Prime Mover(s) and an enhanced ability to harvest momentum imo ..

I think of it as my " Mechanical Motion Rectifier " ( for want of a better term, or analogous to in other fields a commutator / inverter / diode ) .. you get the picture, think mechanical sea-wave energy harvesting i.e. lateral moving wave energy gets converted into vertical linear potential - my theory says it takes wheel motion in any x or y coordinate direction ( e.g. horizontal and/or vertical ) and rectifies it into upward/vertical movement/motion of the swingers to repeatedly restore PE and renew torque to self-rotate ..

...........................
Last edited by Fletcher on Thu Feb 13, 2025 9:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Roxaway59
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 799
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:34 pm

Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by Roxaway59 »

Its funny you should say that about diodes Fletcher because I often think about what would act as a mechanical substitute for a diode.

One obvious one is a ratchet but another is something hitting something solid.

Graham
spinner361
Devotee
Devotee
Posts: 1445
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:34 am
Location: Wisconsin, U.S.A.

Re: Hypothesis .. Raising GPE without using Law of Levers ? ..

Post by spinner361 »

Maybe the pendulums were big wrenches to keep him safe when he got himself inside of there. Safety first. I bet that big wheel could have ripped his arm off.
Last edited by spinner361 on Thu Feb 13, 2025 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply