Gravitational shortcut

[daxwc]

Still at the same place. ChatGPT and I are in a battle. Pretty sure the words are priminen movens; the second I dot is in the tail of the upper line and is the approximate distance as the first I dot. Also I don't see no second P there.

"priminen movens" as a Latin phrase embedded within a German document—this is significant!

Understanding "Priminen Movens" in Context (1717 Science & Mechanics)
Latin Was the Language of Science

In 1717, Latin was still widely used in scientific, philosophical, and technical writings, even within German texts.
Key scientific terms, especially those relating to mechanics and physics, were often Latin because they were meant for an international audience.
Priminen vs. Principium

"Principium movens" was the standard Latin phrase for a "moving principle" or "prime mover."
"Priminen movens" is an unusual phrasing.
"Priminen" does not exist as a standard Latin word, but it could be a rare or Bessler-specific variation of "prīminēns", which could imply "leading" or "chief."


Possible Meaning in Bessler’s Text

"Priminen movens" could mean:
1) "Chief moving principle" → Suggesting a key force or dominant mechanism.
2) "Foremost mover" → Implying something fundamental and essential.
3) A Unique Term Coined by Bessler → Perhaps to distinguish his concept from others.


Why Didn’t He Use the German Equivalent?
Bessler might have deliberately left this in Latin because:
The term was scientific and well-known among scholars.
He wanted to add mystery and make the concept seem more authoritative.
There was no exact German equivalent at the time for this precise mechanical idea.

Final Thought
"Priminen movens" appears to be a technical or philosophical term for the key driving force in his machine. It may differ subtly from "principium movens" by implying a dominant or unique mechanism rather than just a generic prime mover.

[daxwc]

ChatGPT:
Why Didn’t Bessler Use "Primum Movens"?

Instead of the standard "Primum Movens", Bessler wrote "Priminen Movens", which is unusual. This suggests that:

He was coining a slightly modified term—perhaps to distinguish his mechanical concept from the traditional "prime mover" of Aristotelian philosophy.

"Priminen" could emphasize a specific characteristic—possibly meaning "foremost" or "leading" rather than just "first."

[daxwc]

So here is MT20

ChatGPT: Here is the transcribed text from the image:

No: 20.
Für falls die Würckung sehn und das umbschlagen wohl zu erkanten,
so erscheinet auf solchem Forme.
Zimb ist aber sonderlich das drittemal gibt das A.
Hern 15 Fälle welches der Formen würckig,
Ich aber es nicht für aber die Würckung in sechs nimmt.



Now, I'll provide a word-for-word translation:
No: 20.
Für = For
falls = cases
die = the
Würckung = effect (or working)
sehn = see
und = and
das = that
umbschlagen = turning over (or overturning)
wohl = well
zu = to
erkanten = recognize
so = so
erscheinet = appears
auf = on
solchem = such
Forme = form
Zimb = (Possibly "Zimbel," meaning cymbal, but unclear in this context)
ist = is
aber = but
sonderlich = especially
das = that
drittemal = third time
gibt = gives
das = the
A = A
Hern = (Possibly "Herrn," meaning "Mr." or "Lord," but unclear here)
15 = 15
Fälle = cases (or falls)
welches = which
der = the
Formen = forms
würckig = effective (or working)
Ich = I
aber = but
es = it
nicht = not
für = for
aber = but
die = the
Würckung = effect
in = in
sechs = six
nimmt = takes

How would somebody get this translation???? "No. 20. Here the previous levers work somewhat differently and lift special weights and turn them outwards to over so that side A is supposedly always heavier, which my friend believed, but I denied. I then reminded him to put the horse before the cart."

ChatGPT said:
That translation is not a direct, word-for-word rendering of the original German text—it seems to be an interpretive translation, possibly influenced by assumptions about Bessler's wheel mechanics. Here’s why it differs from a strict, literal translation:

1. "No. 20" - This part matches.

2. "Here the previous levers work somewhat differently..."
The original text does mention "Formen" (forms/shapes) and "Würckung" (effect), but not "previous levers."

3. "Lift special weights and turn them outwards"
There is a reference to "umbschlagen" (overturning) and "erscheinet auf solchem Forme" (appears in such a form), but it doesn't explicitly say "lift special weights."

4. "So that side A is supposedly always heavier"
The text does mention "das A" but without clearly stating it is "always heavier."

5. "Which my friend believed, but I denied"
This is an interpretation. The original text doesn’t explicitly mention belief or denial.

6. "I then reminded him to put the horse before the cart."
This is completely absent from the original German text. It seems to be an added metaphor that was not originally there.


Possible Explanations for the Mistranslation:
• The person who made it may have been familiar with Bessler's theories and added their own interpretations.
• They might have had access to other notes that provided additional context.
• They could have misunderstood or restructured the sentence to fit a preconceived idea of how the mechanism worked.

[daxwc]

No: 20.
Für falls die Würckung sehn und das umbschlagen wohl zu erkanten,
so erscheinet auf solchem Forme.
Zimb ist aber sonderlich das drittemal gibt das A.
Hieran solle man merken, welches die Formen würckig.
Ich aber es nicht für aber die Würckung in sechs nimmt.

Now, I'll refine the translation while keeping it as accurate as possible:

No. 20
In case one wants to see the effect and recognize the overturning well,
it appears in such a form.
But what is especially notable is that the third time gives the A.
One should take note of this, as it determines the effect of the forms.
However, I do not take it as the effect in six.

Key Notes:
-No "Hern 15" – You're absolutely right! What I initially thought was "Hern 15" is actually "Hieran" (meaning "hereon" or "on this").

-No "Horse" or "Cart" – The metaphor in the alternative translation you provided seems to have been added by someone else.

-Possible mix of Latin and German – I didn’t spot any clear Latin words, but some archaic German phrasing might be influenced by Latin structure.

-"Zimb" remains unclear – This could be a shorthand or an abbreviation. It doesn't seem to be a standard German word.

I am unsure but the three and the six might be clock positions.

[John Collins]

Can I just ask where you got the ‘transcribed text’ from? You seem to be able read it with considerable ease so I assume you are able to ‘read’ it yourself. I'm aware that the original transcription was done in the USA many years ago and the person who did it was happy to let me use his translation but unwilling to share his German transcription. I respect the work you are doing and I’m enjoying what you post, but from my own experience as well as that of Stewart, who has delved more deeply into this than I could, it is easy to misread Bessler’s handwriting, understand bis abbreviations etc. I always try to remember that these were notes he added for his own benefit and not written in their current way for others to read. It may therefore not necessarily be accurate descriptions of the drawings so much as brief comments to guide him in his instruction of his apprentices.

No offence intended!

JC

[daxwc]

Sure JC. I will let Copilot explain it, most of the translation was done by artificial intelligence and that what it actually was designed for:

ChatGPT is a type of AI developed by a company called OpenAI, and it's based on something called a "Large Language Model" (LLM). In simple terms, it's like a very advanced program that has been trained to understand and generate human language. It can read, write, and even have conversations, much like we're doing right now.

Imagine you've read thousands of books, articles, and documents, and you've learned a lot from them. That's how ChatGPT was trained—by processing a huge amount of text from the internet and other sources. This training helps it understand patterns in language, such as grammar, context, and even some subtle nuances.

When it comes to translating handwritten text, ChatGPT uses its knowledge of language and context to interpret the text. Handwritten text can be tricky because people's handwriting varies a lot, and there can be abbreviations or shorthand that need to be deciphered. ChatGPT does its best to understand these and provide a readable translation.

It's like having a very knowledgeable and patient assistant who can read even the most challenging handwriting and help make sense of it. Does that help clarify things a bit?

So when it was doing MT 20 I specifically asked it afterward to look for "horse" or "cart" . Then any form Latin or German.

[johannesbender]

Can I just ask where you got the ‘transcribed text’ from? You seem to be able read it with considerable ease so I assume you are able to ‘read’ it yourself. I'm aware that the original transcription was done in the USA many years ago and the person who did it was happy to let me use his translation but unwilling to share his German transcription. I respect the work you are doing and I’m enjoying what you post, but from my own experience as well as that of Stewart, who has delved more deeply into this than I could, it is easy to misread Bessler’s handwriting, understand bis abbreviations etc. I always try to remember that these were notes he added for his own benefit and not written in their current way for others to read. It may therefore not necessarily be accurate descriptions of the drawings so much as brief comments to guide him in his instruction of his apprentices.

No offence intended!

JC

I would have to disagree with this statement , many of the comments talks about the reader and commentators etc that indicates it was not for himself , for a quick example

At this point the reader is free to speculate as he pleases and to explore his thoughts on the matter.

and

Deliberation or judgment is left to the mind of each reader.

[John Collins]

Thanks daxwc. It’s very clever, but I still think the handwriting is so bad errors might be made.

Also there are plenty of copies of his good handwriting such as he used to write letters to various prominent people, so if this collection of drawings with notes was ready to be read he would have written in a much more legible style.

And to you johannesbender, the same applies. But yes it would appear that he did intend to publish MT, or at least use it to,train his apprentices.

Even so the notes might have been available in printed format for the classroom. Having said the I agree he did address the reader who might have been someone who bought the MT.

JC

[daxwc]

One thing for those trying to translate using ChatGPT:

1) Make sure to delete all prior conversations. Otherwise it will grab and hallucinate.
2) Ask for word for word translation first.
3) Then ask it to put it in a translated reading form.
4) Go back and ask about certain words, spelling, handwriting.

Make sure to crop and magnify; give it the best picture you can get.

[daxwc]

JC: Thanks daxwc. It’s very clever, but I still think the handwriting is so bad errors might be made.

Sure, not only that but human spelling errors and grammar specially Latin if he is working out of a Latin Dictionary.

Also I think the handwriting just looks very bad because you are not an Old German speaker and writer. If it was English you would have an easier time of it.

Still the "horse" and "cart" is an important talking point. If it isn't there and it is about 3PM and 6PM. Just make the trail cleaner.

[johannesbender]

Thanks daxwc. It’s very clever, but I still think the handwriting is so bad errors might be made.

Also there are plenty of copies of his good handwriting such as he used to write letters to various prominent people, so if this collection of drawings with notes was ready to be read he would have written in a much more legible style.

And to you johannesbender, the same applies. But yes it would appear that he did intend to publish MT, or at least use it to,train his apprentices.

Even so the notes might have been available in printed format for the classroom. Having said the I agree he did address the reader who might have been someone who bought the MT.

JC

I think most of us , myself included , believe MT was not in a finished state , however i don't believe it was for students and also not notes for himself , i believe it is the tractate he talked about when the negotiations for his wheel was being made , which he supposedly was going to sell and wrote that if his wheel sold he would remove it from the book .

edits: typo's as usual.

[Fletcher]

Hey dax .. did you by chance feed ChatGPT MT19 for context ?

Andrew Witter et al ( or any human studying the collection and attempting to translate the notes, and following the numbers sequentially etc ) would immediately notice that MT20 is the exact same base device as MT19, with the 3 o'cl rim flip lever added, along with a single bent-arm A .. and he would notice that the flip lever at 3 was to be forcefully lifted to vertical, and then it was to follow thru to horizontal ( n.b. its own PE helping it lower again into horizontal position with most instant torque ) on the descending side ( CW as almost all his drawings ) - and it is drawn to rotate in this outer orientation until 6 o'cl when the inward facing big rim pivoted lever can fall inwards again against the partition - thereafter the flip levers free-rotate CCW ( i.e. back-wheel / hang ) in relation to the CW turning wheel until they again face inwards at 12 o'cl, in position to be launched again between 12 and 3 o'cl ..

If the MT19 translation is reasonably accurate as it is then it talks about his friend and seems to suggest to me that the " naked " big levers are neither a hindrance nor an advantage ..

Then the nuance and context of MT19 notes translation and meaning can be considered in translating the meaning and intent of MT20 since MT20 was a more complex/evolved form of MT19 .. with the addition of the back-wheeling flip weights ..

[Tarsier79]

His writing is terrible in MT. But it is always good to question the accepted. If you didn't believe that we wouldn't be questioning accepted science.

About 6 weeks ago, we had a big cleanout because we moved 400km, and I found some of my old school books. My writing was on a par, or even worse than Besslers. It was so bad, I couldn't make out individual letters, and if you looked at a word, you would have no idea what it said. Each word was a horizontal squiggly line, but somehow I could read it with relative ease (mostly). With writing that bad, I could have written the biggest secret in the world, blown it up on a poster and put it on every street corner and no-one would be wiser.

CGPT has probably made a mistake or two, perhaps it hasn't. I do now question the translation of it though. I would love to have the time to recheck the translations of all of MT. None of us are perfect, and that goes for whoever transcribed it in the first place.

Putting the "horse before the cart" is pondered by everyone who reads it, and probably most look for a clue here....

[Tarsier79]

https://www.transkribus.org/old-german-scripts

No. 20. hir solten
die vöhrigen Hebel noch
was sonderlches arbeitt
und besondern Gericht
auf haben ud herauß
zur Uberwage wend
also daß davvon
die Seitte s. immer
chwere seyn solle,
welches der fraue
vermeynte,
Ich aber
6verneinte
jedah
in aber die Pferde
dege
er den zuspann
erinnerte

DeepL of the above:

No. 20. here should
the whole lever still
some special work
and special judgement
have on and out
for supervision
so that from this
the side s. always
be heavier,
which the woman
avoided,
But I
6denied
however
but the horses
dege
he harnessed the
reminded

CGPT wrote

No: 20.
Für falls
die Würckung sehn und
das umbschlagen wohl
zu erkanten,
so erscheinet auf solchem Forme.
Zimb ist aber sonderlich das drittemal gibt das A.
Hieran solle man merken, welches die Formen würckig.
Ich aber es nicht für aber die Würckung in sechs nimmt.

Looking at each word, Transcribus is much closer than CGPT, but is still missing quite a few words. I think the CGPT is not good at old german hand writing. Without spending too much time, It looks like JCs translation is pretty close.
I

[daxwc]

Yes it is strange T79. But I got a totally different account as a group even on ChatGPT. That is why I did word for word first.

I specifically asked ChatGPT if any word could be mistaken for horse or cart after the word for word. It said no.

So lets narrow down what word is horse.

If you do word for word it doesn't allow the computer its interpretation.