Was Johann Bessler a fraudster?

[Roxaway59]

My point is a very straight forward one and I reject the idea that its not important.

Probably the most important test that was done to validate Besslers claims was the wheel turning for weeks non stop.

Proving that it would be next to impossible to create the illusion of a 12 foot wheel turning for 54 days non stop adds a great deal of weight to the idea that Bessler successfully made an over unity device.

Graham
Playing devils advocate.

[daxwc]

Graham
Playing devils advocate.

Are you sure that is the Devil's advocate point of view? 8P

[Roxaway59]

Dax wrote -

Are you sure that is the Devil's advocate point of view? 8P

Yes because my money is on it being possible with the technology of that time.

However I don't know that for sure.

Graham
Playing devils advocate.

[Roxaway59]

If someone can prove that it can't be done then to me at least that's an important issue.

Graham
Playing devils advocate.

[Robinhood46]

Proving that it would be next to impossible to create the illusion of a 12 foot wheel turning for 54 days non stop adds a great deal of weight to the idea that Bessler successfully made an over unity device.

I don't see how proving that a theory you come up with, and then argue wasn't the case, because of whatever reason, increases the argument that he wasn't a fraud.
I see it more as a failure to give weight to the, he was a fraud argument.
Maybe we differ because i am seeing the elimination of a negative argument, and you are seeing a positive argument?

[Robinhood46]

If someone can prove that it can't be done then to me at least that's an important issue.

Graham
Playing devils advocate.

I wish someone would prove it can't be done, we could then stop trying to prove that it can.

[daxwc]

Robinhood46: I wish someone would prove it can't be done, we could then stop trying to prove that it can.

Doesn’t matter the goal posts will just be moved. Maybe it will not run a year. Maybe when the planets line up it stops. Save the earth I feel it slowing down and it is affecting a Two Peckered Owl. ;)))

[Roxaway59]

Robinhood wrote -

I don't see how proving that a theory you come up with, and then argue wasn't the case, because of whatever reason, increases the argument that he wasn't a fraud.
I see it more as a failure to give weight to the, he was a fraud argument.
Maybe we differ because i am seeing the elimination of a negative argument, and you are seeing a positive argument?

Think of it as reverse psychology.

Anyone who can show that he couldn't of done this is providing us with answers good or bad.

Graham
Playing devils advocate.

[Fletcher]

Wagner, Gartner and Borlach, ( and others ) were the reason for the necessity of the translocation tests at Merseburg, to refute claims of short demonstration run times, and the crank turning claim .. the crank turning claim is thrown out for the Merseburg wheel ..

Karl organized and gave the oversight to the long duration test at Kassel because that was another legitimate weakness in the argument for a true mechanical Perpetual Motion Machine that Karl ( and others ) thought should be addressed .. the seal was broken and the room opened up after an agreed period of time, then immediately locked and resealed again for another 2 weeks .. the extra time was a clever maneuver which countered any argument for B. having a timing mechanism in the wheel to start and stop it because he did not know that the test would continue on for another period of time until it was dropped on him, and he was happy to oblige ..

Can we know that no trickery or conspiracy to defraud was involved in one or both tests ? - not with 100% complete certainty ..

Can we know that in the Kassel long duration test the wheel ran continuously at 26 rpm for 54 days ? - not with 100% complete certainty ..

If it ran for 54 days can we estimate how much power was consumed just to maintain its rpm ? - yes, we know it had bearing friction ( insert formula ) and we know it had air resistance drag ( form/profile drag + skin friction drag + interference drag = insert formulas ) ..
weight of wheel is not important for parasitic air friction drags calculation but it is an important variable to consider for calculating bearing frictions ..

There are other energy losses to sound and vibrations ..

On balance of probabilities do I think either the Merseburg or Kassel tests were faked - no !

[Roxaway59]

Its just a shame that there isn't more detailed information / documentation on those last tests because that would have helped enormously with shedding light on what happened Fletcher.

I don't believe that Bessler could have used the magnets of the day to do anything either because they were too weak.

If I do think of anything relevant I will post it.

As for now its time to get back to the coalface.

Graham
Playing devils advocate.

[johannesbender]

If someone found out in an hour from now , that Bessler was a fraud , would that stop them cold turkey from continuing or would they say okay so what and continue ?

[Roxaway59]

What would your reply to that question be JB?

Graham

[daxwc]

I would say if it was proven fraud; it’s time to move on from this enigma and focus on other unsolved mysteries. If I were to revisit the pursuit of perpetual motion, it wouldn’t be based on the MT drawings or rely solely on straight mechanical systems. It would need to explore entirely new concepts and approaches, outside the traditional framework.

There is lots of mysteries in the world to solve.

[thx4]

There is lots of mysteries in the world to solve.

Le Conte de Saint Germain is a local legend, immortal and able to turn silver into gold.
You'll see a direct link with Bessler, who's bound to have heard of B.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comte_de_Saint-Germain

[SHADOW]

5 Die stellage zum poch wercfe oder stampen!?
5 La position pour lancer ou frapper!?
5 The stellage to poch throw or stomp!?

Il y a des choses à vérifier si ce n'et pas déjà fait!
There are things to check if this is not already done!

18 ein loch in die pfoste, dadurch die leine gefeuhret
18 un trou dans le poteau, ce qui permet d’enfiler la laisse
18 a hole in the pfoste, thereby the leash