It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than trying to solely profit
Moderator: scott
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
You could also show some true grit, stick it out (no body appendages), and kick some whoop ass with a working machine.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Robert,
Seeing as how it will be 8:00 my time I will say my Goodbye now. (although I do not expect you to go far)
In the mean time I if I do not earn back my fifth Green dot by noon Pacific time, I am going to pop some popcorn, listen to movie waves and figure out how I am going to apologize to my friend James Kelly. I will probably do that, green dot or not.
And to all, I make a public apology for what has happened here to/ for / and about Mr. James Kelly. A man who I feel is a friend with great admiration. And has nothing to do with wheels one way or the other.
I wish you luck, and will not hold a grudge.
Ralph
Seeing as how it will be 8:00 my time I will say my Goodbye now. (although I do not expect you to go far)
In the mean time I if I do not earn back my fifth Green dot by noon Pacific time, I am going to pop some popcorn, listen to movie waves and figure out how I am going to apologize to my friend James Kelly. I will probably do that, green dot or not.
And to all, I make a public apology for what has happened here to/ for / and about Mr. James Kelly. A man who I feel is a friend with great admiration. And has nothing to do with wheels one way or the other.
I wish you luck, and will not hold a grudge.
Ralph
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Carpenter's Boy,
You came into this Bessler world with no reputation. I see now that your reputation is none. If you leave now you break even. What more can you ask for in life?
I don't see why such a fuss over reputation. Why do you blame others? You control your reputation!
There are two types of people in this world. There are those that try to blame others for their condition in life. And there are those that know that they have only themselves to blame.
Some people tend to blame others for things instead of looking at themselves. Some religious people like to put the responsibility on God. They expect God to do things for them. When things fail to work out these type of people blame others.
Some people recognize their own shortcomings. They take responsibility for their own life and try to improve and better themselves.
Carpenter's Boy, I ask, does leaving the Bessler Forum improve or better you? Or is it just an attempt by you to place blame of your low reputation onto others?
Just my opinions.
You came into this Bessler world with no reputation. I see now that your reputation is none. If you leave now you break even. What more can you ask for in life?
I don't see why such a fuss over reputation. Why do you blame others? You control your reputation!
There are two types of people in this world. There are those that try to blame others for their condition in life. And there are those that know that they have only themselves to blame.
Some people tend to blame others for things instead of looking at themselves. Some religious people like to put the responsibility on God. They expect God to do things for them. When things fail to work out these type of people blame others.
Some people recognize their own shortcomings. They take responsibility for their own life and try to improve and better themselves.
Carpenter's Boy, I ask, does leaving the Bessler Forum improve or better you? Or is it just an attempt by you to place blame of your low reputation onto others?
Just my opinions.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
I think Robert has had enough for a while, currently feels beaten by this gem of a problem, and has found a quick exit that dents his ego the least - albeit a little over dramatic.
We've all needed a break at one time or another, but the die hards come back with a vengeance sooner or later :-) Adios Amigo
PS: I'll revoke your red button at 12.01 - LOL
We've all needed a break at one time or another, but the die hards come back with a vengeance sooner or later :-) Adios Amigo
PS: I'll revoke your red button at 12.01 - LOL
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ken_behrendt
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re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Robert...
Although I am not the "official" spokesperson for this board, as far as I am concerned you are always welcome here and I appreciated your input. It's good to have people coming here who are working on the problem of OU/PM whether its at the level of conjecture, virtual builds, or real builds.
However, periodically it's a good idea to take a vacation or "sabbatical" from any pursuit. It can allow the mind to heal up and refresh itself so that it can then go on to consider an old problem in a new light.
Please don't let that bunch of green dots next to your avatar hypnotize you into thinking its some accurate measure of your self-worth or your "status" here. If Johann Bessler himself was a member of this board today, he would probably already have two RED dots next to his avatar!
Do please return when you have something to share. Most of the members here do, I believe, appreciate it and it might help stimulate them to find new paths to explore in their own quests...
ken
Although I am not the "official" spokesperson for this board, as far as I am concerned you are always welcome here and I appreciated your input. It's good to have people coming here who are working on the problem of OU/PM whether its at the level of conjecture, virtual builds, or real builds.
However, periodically it's a good idea to take a vacation or "sabbatical" from any pursuit. It can allow the mind to heal up and refresh itself so that it can then go on to consider an old problem in a new light.
Please don't let that bunch of green dots next to your avatar hypnotize you into thinking its some accurate measure of your self-worth or your "status" here. If Johann Bessler himself was a member of this board today, he would probably already have two RED dots next to his avatar!
Do please return when you have something to share. Most of the members here do, I believe, appreciate it and it might help stimulate them to find new paths to explore in their own quests...
ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Although I far from agree with Roberts action against Ralph, nicely said Ken.
Robert I revoked the negative rep I gave when the comedy started.
Robert I revoked the negative rep I gave when the comedy started.
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coylo
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Robert's behaviour is quite frankly - pathetic.
He some what stated that he is deliberately being controversial so his thread would recieve the most hits on the forum, even at the expense of Ralph - a supporter of his. He has over-rated his own self importance and constantly sulks like an attention-seeking spoilt child, and now he's trying to regain an undeserved rep via blackmail.
I wonder what contents of his so called "christian" character he's going to reveal next.
I really don't care if he pisses-off, I've got a bad vibe about his wheel anyway from his posts. I'm not prepared to sell-out at the expense that Robert just might have a working wheel, that would make me less of a man.
The world does not revolve around Robert.
He some what stated that he is deliberately being controversial so his thread would recieve the most hits on the forum, even at the expense of Ralph - a supporter of his. He has over-rated his own self importance and constantly sulks like an attention-seeking spoilt child, and now he's trying to regain an undeserved rep via blackmail.
I wonder what contents of his so called "christian" character he's going to reveal next.
I really don't care if he pisses-off, I've got a bad vibe about his wheel anyway from his posts. I'm not prepared to sell-out at the expense that Robert just might have a working wheel, that would make me less of a man.
The world does not revolve around Robert.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Coylo,
I like your point of view, and would like to add: What difference does it make if Robert were to discover a working wheel while being a member or not. We would only hear about it from a different source. I see no reason to wish his presence because he might find something. We would hear about it anyway. One does not gain a rep by threatening influence.
Ralph
I like your point of view, and would like to add: What difference does it make if Robert were to discover a working wheel while being a member or not. We would only hear about it from a different source. I see no reason to wish his presence because he might find something. We would hear about it anyway. One does not gain a rep by threatening influence.
Ralph
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
I think he said he would build his alternative web site to disclose if he had a working wheel & not here anyway. When its up & running will probably be the time he has a working wheel.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
LIKE SANDS THROUGH THE HOURGLASS... SO ARE THE
This board has it all! Laughter, Tears, Drama, Contoversy, Jubilation, Frustration.. etcetera, etcetera... LOL!
Better than ANY Soapie!
This board has it all! Laughter, Tears, Drama, Contoversy, Jubilation, Frustration.. etcetera, etcetera... LOL!
Better than ANY Soapie!
The limits of the possible can only be defined by going beyond them into the impossible.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Gentleman,
Had a lengthy conversation with my friend James this afternoon and we both had a good laugh! Then got on with business.
He brought to my attention something that I had already picked up on and let go. That is, how does one using a Prony brake facsimile get a positive weight reading at nine and also three on a CCW rotating wheel.
I think the hands of the clock, must be drooping, I can think of no other way to read weight on both ends of a lever at the same time. Please enlightne me if you know how this is done.
Ralph
Had a lengthy conversation with my friend James this afternoon and we both had a good laugh! Then got on with business.
He brought to my attention something that I had already picked up on and let go. That is, how does one using a Prony brake facsimile get a positive weight reading at nine and also three on a CCW rotating wheel.
I think the hands of the clock, must be drooping, I can think of no other way to read weight on both ends of a lever at the same time. Please enlightne me if you know how this is done.
Ralph
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Ralph,
IIRC you said you are using a stick between a bolt and your scale? What you need to do is add a temporary weight to that bolt each time, say a 900g weight. That way you can make all measurements from the same side. You measure and record all the position on one side of the wheel. Then measure all the positions on the other side of the wheel. Consider one (left?) side as being negative and the other (right?) side as positive. Add the two numbers from a single bolt and divide by two. That will eliminate most errors.
You're making static measurements. When a wheel rotates things become dynamic, which likes to mucks things up.
I worked more than 20 years as an inspector in a machine shop. I have a LOT of experience measuring things. Hope this helps.
IIRC you said you are using a stick between a bolt and your scale? What you need to do is add a temporary weight to that bolt each time, say a 900g weight. That way you can make all measurements from the same side. You measure and record all the position on one side of the wheel. Then measure all the positions on the other side of the wheel. Consider one (left?) side as being negative and the other (right?) side as positive. Add the two numbers from a single bolt and divide by two. That will eliminate most errors.
You're making static measurements. When a wheel rotates things become dynamic, which likes to mucks things up.
I worked more than 20 years as an inspector in a machine shop. I have a LOT of experience measuring things. Hope this helps.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Jim_mitch,
OK I think, but not positive I know what you are saying. But that still leaves me in the air about why one would add weight to get a measurement on opposing sides and then add and divide by two. That is unless one is attempting to achieve perfect balance in increments. Your description would indicate where to add and where to remove mass.
My simple mind tells me that if I have achieved a working gravity wheel that rotates toward it heavy side, the other side is obviously negative. All I have to do is weigh the descending side at X number of degrees for 360 degrees. Then add all, then divide by number taken, that would give me a static foot pound average for the whole wheel.
I can see one wishing to balance a wheel before adding weight for efficient performance, but not after the COG is moved off center.
And yes I agree that once set in motion dynamics are going to change, for the better I should hope.
Thank you for your quick response,
EDIT: here is a link for a simple prony brake.
http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/meas ... power.html
Ralph
OK I think, but not positive I know what you are saying. But that still leaves me in the air about why one would add weight to get a measurement on opposing sides and then add and divide by two. That is unless one is attempting to achieve perfect balance in increments. Your description would indicate where to add and where to remove mass.
My simple mind tells me that if I have achieved a working gravity wheel that rotates toward it heavy side, the other side is obviously negative. All I have to do is weigh the descending side at X number of degrees for 360 degrees. Then add all, then divide by number taken, that would give me a static foot pound average for the whole wheel.
I can see one wishing to balance a wheel before adding weight for efficient performance, but not after the COG is moved off center.
And yes I agree that once set in motion dynamics are going to change, for the better I should hope.
Thank you for your quick response,
EDIT: here is a link for a simple prony brake.
http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/meas ... power.html
Ralph
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Ralph,
Usually a Prony brake is used to measure the output energy of an engine. You stated that you were measuring on one side of the wheel then on the other side. Your list of measurements shows descending values from 12 o'clock CCW through 6 o'clock and ascending values from 5 o'clock CCW through 1 o'clock.
Since you are taking multiple measurements I must assume that these are static measurements rather than the dynamic measurements that a Prony brake is designed for.
This leads me to the assumption that you are measuring just one weight in differing locations as the wheel is manually rotated. I assume that your wheel's torque is sometimes positive and sometimes negative.
Then you ask some questions...
The Prony brake that I posted about a year ago is balanced.
I assumed that your wheel wanted to turn CCW most of the time but wanted to turn CW part of the time. If you took part of your Prony brake reading from one side and part from the other side then the weight of the stick and other factors may introduce errors.
I suggested a method to eliminate these possible errors so as to make a very accurate measurement. I assumed that was what you were asking about. I showed a way to read weight on both ends of a lever. Hang extra weight each time you take a measurement so you can take all measurements from the same side. Then do the same on the other side. The difference between the two measurements will be twice the torque that your wheel is producing.
Usually a Prony brake is used to measure the output energy of an engine. You stated that you were measuring on one side of the wheel then on the other side. Your list of measurements shows descending values from 12 o'clock CCW through 6 o'clock and ascending values from 5 o'clock CCW through 1 o'clock.
Since you are taking multiple measurements I must assume that these are static measurements rather than the dynamic measurements that a Prony brake is designed for.
This leads me to the assumption that you are measuring just one weight in differing locations as the wheel is manually rotated. I assume that your wheel's torque is sometimes positive and sometimes negative.
Then you ask some questions...
As you can see I had to make a lot of assumptions as to what you were doing and asking. I assumed you were concerned about the accuracy of your tests. For instance your Prony brake setup must be balanced properly. If you use a Prony brake as you show in your link then you must account for the weight of the rod and you must move it from one side to the other.Ralph wrote:That is, how does one using a Prony brake facsimile get a positive weight reading at nine and also three on a CCW rotating wheel.
I think the hands of the clock, must be drooping, I can think of no other way to read weight on both ends of a lever at the same time. Please enlightne me if you know how this is done.
The Prony brake that I posted about a year ago is balanced.
I assumed that your wheel wanted to turn CCW most of the time but wanted to turn CW part of the time. If you took part of your Prony brake reading from one side and part from the other side then the weight of the stick and other factors may introduce errors.
I suggested a method to eliminate these possible errors so as to make a very accurate measurement. I assumed that was what you were asking about. I showed a way to read weight on both ends of a lever. Hang extra weight each time you take a measurement so you can take all measurements from the same side. Then do the same on the other side. The difference between the two measurements will be twice the torque that your wheel is producing.
re: It Would Be More Noble To Clear J. Bessler's Name, than
Jim,
Sorry for causing you to spend so much time on the above post.
Unfortunately you are confusing me with Robert once again. It was he who posted the weighing on both sides of his wheel, not I.
I was questioning how he could get a positive static weight measurement on both sides of an alleged off center weight arrangement. I personally have done none of the above as I believe it is a foolish attempt. Possibly to impress some one who does not have their eyes open to see the obvious.
Thank you for your time, I do find your post informative and of value, but I cannot explain how exactly Robert derived his posted figures. I only weigh the descending side. My Quote above was derived from Roberts input and not of my doing.
Ralph
Sorry for causing you to spend so much time on the above post.
Unfortunately you are confusing me with Robert once again. It was he who posted the weighing on both sides of his wheel, not I.
I was questioning how he could get a positive static weight measurement on both sides of an alleged off center weight arrangement. I personally have done none of the above as I believe it is a foolish attempt. Possibly to impress some one who does not have their eyes open to see the obvious.
Thank you for your time, I do find your post informative and of value, but I cannot explain how exactly Robert derived his posted figures. I only weigh the descending side. My Quote above was derived from Roberts input and not of my doing.
Ralph