Another wheel idea

[John Collins]

This one was sent to me by Jeff Makowske. He has said that he doesn't mind if I post it as long as he is credited with the idea. Interesting but I'm no electics expert - an comments?

[Neo]

Hello John,

Can I ask what is the point of posting a wheel that uses electricty to turn with, in a most inefficient way? Why not just use an electric motor to turn the wheel!

John, I've found out in order to get any wheel to work we first must stamp out our enemy FRICTION! You see other wheels that are used to generate power simply are turned by external forces...like water wheels and windmills. Yet here we are trying to build a wheel with an internal mechanism attempting to turn it from the inside out without taking into consideration that FRICTION is going to win in the end. We must rethink the problem which is how to cause an inbalance in the wheel with simple translational motion and nothing else. I'm making a few images of the concepts and a scan of a rubberband heat engine that is the basis of my reasoning, the engine is from a book called 333 more science tricks and experiments, this wheel turns because a lamp heating the rubber band spokes on one side of the wheel causes them to contract, throwing the wheel out of balance. This wheel is actually a gravity wheel in the sense that it is gravity that moves this now unbalanced wheel, a true PMM. Now if we replace the Lamp with Gravity and the rubberbands with a internal frictionless system like the rubberbands which simply contract to cause and inbalance, affecting not the internal edges of the wheel then by george we will have what we are looking for...stay tuned.

[John Collins]

I'd have to disagree with you Neo. Firstly I thought that the wheel was worth posting because although it uses electricity it also requires gravity to turn it, so I believe it is of interest to us. It has been pointed out to me in the past that the year of Bessler's death, 1745, was also the year that the Leiden jar was invented and there has been speculation that somehow Bessler used some kind of capacitor or condenser, such as the Leiden jar, to store electricity for use in physically altering the positions of the weights during rotation.

BTW you need to click on the gif to get the animation

Now I don't subscribe to that theory but that does not mean that others might not be interested in something that does something similar.

Secondly I disagree with your statement "..in order to get any wheel to work we first must stamp out our enemy FRICTION" That is clearly wrong otherwise the wheel could not do any work and Bessler's machine did work - in addition to turning itself it also raised a weight of about 70 lbs.

I won't comment in detail on the rest of your posting but I think that you are wrong there too. No offence intended.

John Collins

[Jonathan]

I agree with John, and I disagree with your statement "a true PMM", when it is obvious that it is the lamp that provides the energy. It is only a true PMM when one has figured out how to get gravity to replace the lamp, so that you needn't power it.
As to the machine that is the topic of this thread, I don't think it would be overunity. It would no doubt work, but I don't see where the extra energy comes in. If we were to hook it up to a generator that made the correct pulses for the electromagnet, I don't think it would run perpetually.
There is one case where it might, and that is if one uses Tesla's bifilar coil for the electromagnet and then we'd have to assume that it works as described in the patent, which it very well might, Tesla was smart ya know. To see the patent, go to:
http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html
and click on Patent Number Search on the left. Then enter 512,340 and click Search. (I think you need to include the comma in the number.) The patent will pop right up, but they don't have it transcribed, they only have the actual patent pictures, so click Images and it will take you to the drawing part of the patent. You can use the buttons on the left to look at the rest of it, the whole thing is only three pages long.
I do plan on eventually testing it, but it will be a while. Until then, all I know is what the patent says.

[Neo]

Guys here are a few ideas of mine that do not work...[/img]

[Michael]

Hi John, everyone,

Looking at the diagram I agree also it won't work. In terms of free energy that is.

Here's something to consider. It takes hardly any energy to boil water if it is stored in a vacuum. In fact I use to have a pen that at the top had two globes connected by a narrow cylinder-all glass. Just holding the lower globe caused the liquid inside to boil and rise up to the higher globe. If it had a bearing in the center, so it rotated once the liquid was at the top, and something else was used to create the slight heat difference needed for the liquid to boil, a "free energy" machine could be used-running off the ambient heat.

Michael

[Jonathan]

I used to have one of those, but I don't think it has anything to do with a vaccum, I think the liquid just has a special boiling point. It works on a principle similar to a dunking bird. The problem is that it really isn't free, it is powered by the food you eat, which generally doesn't just grow itself. There are possible versions where it is powered driectly by the sun, but such devices may not have much power, are seasonal, and almost always require gearing because they have high torque but move slowly. Interestingly enough, the simplest ones are technically powered by both the sun and gravity, because they won't work without gravity. But gravity in this case only acts as a spring, so if one wanted an outer space version to work, you could use springs or magnets or anything similar. It actually occurs to me now that if one did use those in addition to gravity, you could increase its power output. If you guys show any interest in this type of device, I wil start a new thread on it. I think they are neat, you just set them down and away they go, they are the closet thing to PM yet: if you had a big one that was outside continually, you really would have to put a brake or stopper on it so you don't have to take care of the mechanical wearing. Of course it does turn off at night though.

[Michael]

Hi Jon,
You wrote;


>I used to have one of those, but I don't think it has anything to do with a vaccum, I think the liquid just has a special boiling point. It works on a principle similar to a dunking bird. The problem is that it really isn't free, it is powered by the food you eat...

Actually it has everything to do with a vacuum. It is true some liquids boil faster than water, but if you do some research you'll also see it takes more energy to get these liquids to condense back to a liquid. I am citing ammonia here. I have no idea what liquid this device has in it, only it is colored purple. The reason ANY liquids boiling point is reduced depending upon the value of vacuum is because more vacuum-less ambient pressure, surrounding the liquid. Less surrounding pressure, easier to energize liquid. I assume that because the device I mentioned was quite small, and thus the glass was thin, there wasn't must of a vacuum difference. So, a larger machine with a greater vacuum would cause the liquid to boil at a faster rate, and/or use less heat. And it only took some slight body heat ie. my fingers, over a second or two to get this thing to work. Now... if the liquid was between flat planes of glass, instad of round globes, and the upper one was sandwiched between two sheets of cold steel, but not touching so as to prevent friction: or touching, but they pulled away when the device is suppose to rotate, then possibly it could run just on ambient heat. Also the only similarity this device has to the drinking bird device you mentioned is the use of a liquid and heat. As far as mechanics go they are the exact opposite because the drinking bird looses it's fuel ie. the liquid, in heat evaporation. The divide I am mentioning has no liquid loss.
What you mean by this I have no idea;
>problem is that it really isn't free, it is powered by the food you eat...


Mike

[Jonathan]

I'm sorry, that was a little confusing, you eat food and some of the chemical energy in the food becomes heat in your body. The chemical energy comes from the sun freely, but one must also put lots of energy it to get the food, because it generally doesn't just grow itself.
Besides the use of globes and a working fluid, the deivce described has one more similarity to a dunking bird: it needs a temperature differential. Your body provides that because you are hotter than the ambient. This point is important because for such a device to be powered by ambient temperatures, there must be a place for that energy to go, which in this case would be a cold spot, which takes energy to create and keep sustained.
However the other device I mentioned, that is powered by the sun, has a freely provided cold and hot source: the sun makes one side hot, and the other side is put in the shade so that the device runs off the temperture difference between direct sunlight and shade. For the device to work better, then there are many things you could do. You could use an outside liquid like a dunking bird, but this would just be a continuous version of that. You could make sure there is little other way for the heat energy to get from the hot to the cold, so the almost the complete temperature differential is used to power it. One would preferably have the heat exchanging parts be black. (It would seem that you'd also want them to have a high surface area, but that helps them cool on the hot side as much as the cold side, since it is exposed to air on both but you want it to cool only on one side.) I could go on for a while.
My point is that thermodynamics wins in cases like this. If you have a fluid exposed to a rarified atmosphere, it takes less energy to boil it. But because it is in this rarified atmosphere, you'd get the same energy out when you condense it. Now it would seem that if one violated those conditions, say by having the atmospheric pressure change at the right frequency, one could get a net energy out. But I'm quite certain that the energy required to make the pressure change will be the same as or greater than the enrgy out. As near as I can tell, in the physics of heat, thermodynamics has PM and free energy licked.
However, you seem to be getting at something, like you have an idea in mind. Have you got something that shows thermodynamics wrong? Actually, now that I think about it, I remember that some guy tried to sell a PM/free energy engine to the Navy and it had something to do with cyclic evaporation and condensation of ammonia. Is that it? I remember reading a skeptic site that explained why that doesn't work, but I don't remember what it said. If this is the case, I will see if I can find that site.

[Doobage]

The only problem I see with this model is the electric magnet. Electricity in a PMM is very difficult to use. First, you would need to get a generator that takes energy from the spinning wheel and turn it into electricity. This is a significant loss of energy. Then, you need to send the electricity into a magnet. More loss along the wire. Then you need to create an electro magnetic pulse. More loss. Then add in all your regular friction points as well. In the end, you are using far more energy than is regenerated by the wheel.

However, if you use a permanent magnet (as I am also attempting to do), then I believe it's possible. You would need to have enough off balance weight to overcome the one weight being lifted by the magnet. So this might become a "scale" issue in that only a large model will work, since many off balance weights will be required.

I hope to give it a crack over Thanksgiving.

Nice image.

Doobage

[iacob alex]

.....if you take a look at a 5757 wheel_spoke collection , visiting :
www.123rf.com/stock-photo/wheel_spoke.html
Al_ex

[Fcdriver]

The software for the automation was not set correctly, the slightest cf would cause the weights to move to a balanced position midway, and the pulse would only hold it there for that brief sec. By putting the weights on levers pumping the levers, you don't have to deal with any cf. a series of levers pumping themselves with a weaker pulse on both sides alternating, or a spring return.

The force shifting the weights has to be a oscillating force, not a translating force. The translating forces pinches holding it steady.

[Fcdriver]

A few changes on the idea might work a series of levers pumping, while alternate magnets shifting the weights top and bottom. A north magnet at 2:00 o'clock a south magnet at 4:00 o'clock and just the opposite on the reverse side. The levers with sliding magnets, while the weight of the magnets move the levers, ratcheting the wheel.

[Fcdriver]

But a magnet strong enough to move the weights holds the levers in either the up or down position, so it would still have to pulse.

[Fcdriver]

Could a coil being placed close enough to the edge of the weights create a charge while they drop or move back up? Hmm?