Pair of Pairs
Moderator: scott
Pair of Pairs
My poor old brain does not always remember small details, so this is a request for help.
Regarding Bessler wheels we've heard the term "weights work in pairs". Where does this phrase originate? In the English language a "pair" is two of an item. Pairs would be plural, or more than one pair. If you have "a pair of shoes" then you have two shoes. If you have "pairs of shoes" then you have at a minimum of four shoes. If you have "shoes work in pairs" then do you have a multiple number of shoe pairs?
Might the phrase indicate at least four weights, such as one pair of weights on one side and one pair on the other side, all working or connected together. Does this make sense?
My request is... Can anyone tell if Bessler's German texts support this concept of a pair of a pair of weights working together?
Could this be the configuration that works? Why does Bessler picture two pairs of toys, each with two hammer guys? I may be on to something, but it's too early to tell.
Regarding Bessler wheels we've heard the term "weights work in pairs". Where does this phrase originate? In the English language a "pair" is two of an item. Pairs would be plural, or more than one pair. If you have "a pair of shoes" then you have two shoes. If you have "pairs of shoes" then you have at a minimum of four shoes. If you have "shoes work in pairs" then do you have a multiple number of shoe pairs?
Might the phrase indicate at least four weights, such as one pair of weights on one side and one pair on the other side, all working or connected together. Does this make sense?
My request is... Can anyone tell if Bessler's German texts support this concept of a pair of a pair of weights working together?
Could this be the configuration that works? Why does Bessler picture two pairs of toys, each with two hammer guys? I may be on to something, but it's too early to tell.
re: Pair of Pairs
Jim, also in portuguese a pair means two stuffs that match between.
A pair of shoes is left and right shoe... in oposition but complementary. This is, in my mind, basic to the draw of a PM wheel.
The number of pairs will be limitated by designer will and mechanical sources, I guess. regs. M.
A pair of shoes is left and right shoe... in oposition but complementary. This is, in my mind, basic to the draw of a PM wheel.
The number of pairs will be limitated by designer will and mechanical sources, I guess. regs. M.
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re: Pair of Pairs
Jim asked:
We are further told by Bessler that the weight(s) in one of the opposed pair's mechanisms is moved outward toward the rim of the wheel while the weight(s) in the other mechanism is moved inward toward the axle of the wheel. Obviously, it was the imbalance of this that provided the torque that accelerated the wheels.
We are not, I think, however, told how many weights were in each of the two opposed mechanisms that made up each opposed pair of mechanisms. I've variously tried three, two, and, recently, only one weight in each of the mechanisms that made up an opposed pair of such mechanisms.
Now, I am convinced that the "magic" number is TWO weights per mechanism. I show my latest approach to this whole problem with the design for the "Carpenter's Boy's Wheel" over in my "...Updates" thread in the Community Buzz forum.
ken
The exact reference can be found in AP on pages 295 - 296 where Bessler writes:Regarding Bessler wheels we've heard the term "weights work in pairs". Where does this phrase originate?
To me, it is clear that Bessler is telling the reader that the "pair" involves matched mechanisms that are diametrically opposed from each other or located 180° from each other around the wheel. Thus, a wheel containing 8 such mechanisms would have them arranged into four opposed pairs, each at an angular interval of 45° from its two nearest neighboring opposed pairs.IÂ’d like, at this point, to give a brief description of it. So then, a work of this kind of craftsmanship has, as its basis of motion, many separate pieces of lead. These come in pairs, such that, as one of them takes up an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle. Later, they swap places, and so they go on and on changing places all the time.
We are further told by Bessler that the weight(s) in one of the opposed pair's mechanisms is moved outward toward the rim of the wheel while the weight(s) in the other mechanism is moved inward toward the axle of the wheel. Obviously, it was the imbalance of this that provided the torque that accelerated the wheels.
We are not, I think, however, told how many weights were in each of the two opposed mechanisms that made up each opposed pair of mechanisms. I've variously tried three, two, and, recently, only one weight in each of the mechanisms that made up an opposed pair of such mechanisms.
Now, I am convinced that the "magic" number is TWO weights per mechanism. I show my latest approach to this whole problem with the design for the "Carpenter's Boy's Wheel" over in my "...Updates" thread in the Community Buzz forum.
ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: Pair of Pairs
To me it is not clear clear that Bessler is telling the reader that the "pair" involves matched mechanisms that are diametrically opposed from each other or located 180° from each other around the wheel.I’d like, at this point, to give a brief description of it. So then, a work of this kind of craftsmanship has, as its basis of motion, many separate pieces of lead. These come in pairs, such that, as one of them takes up an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle. Later, they swap places, and so they go on and on changing places all the time.
To me it is clear that the weights are lead and not brass clock weights. They are attached in pairs and those on the right side of the wheel have no matching or diametrically connection with those on the left side. They are not located 180 degrees from each other. They exchange places because they flip over each 1/2 turn of the wheel.
<Thus, a wheel containing 8 such mechanisms would have them arranged into four opposed pairs, each at an angular interval of 45° from its two nearest neighboring opposed pairs.>
Wrong! There can be eight or an odd number of pairs the angular interval is varied with the number of pairs and rpm chosen. They are not in opposition as they do not have any relation to each other nor do they clutter the peacocks tail by ascending higher than nine o'clock.
<We are further told by Bessler that the weight(s) in one of the opposed pair's mechanisms is moved outward toward the rim of the wheel while the weight(s) in the other mechanism is moved inward toward the axle of the wheel. Obviously, it was the imbalance of this that provided the torque that accelerated the wheels.>
Ken, go back and read the quote, their is no mention of "opposed pairs"
Yes one pair moves by the outer falling downward while pushing its mate inward. It then through that which I am not ready to reveal forces a pair of weights on the descending side to literally stack up against the rim at three o'clock. When they "unstack" they are heading in a different position causing the inner to become the outer as so quoted.
<We are not, I think, however, told how many weights were in each of the two opposed mechanisms that made up each opposed pair of mechanisms. I've variously tried three, two, and, recently, only one weight in each of the mechanisms that made up an opposed pair of such mechanisms.>
You are told by Bessler, by him stating that variations of his design were possible. Here once again you refer to opposed mechanisms when there is nothing in the quote to lead to this assumption. The opposition if any would be considered within each pair of weights, not between pairs.
<Now, I am convinced that the "magic" number is TWO weights per mechanism. I show my latest approach to this whole problem with the design for the "Carpenter's Boy's Wheel" over in my "...Updates" thread in the Community Buzz forum.>
Ken, how do the TWO weights in your Carpenter's Boy's wheel exchange places and how are they diametrically opposing the weights 180 degrees apart?
Everything I have stated here, I can physicaly attribute to as 90% of it is sitting in my shop.
God! I love a good head on debate without personal degradation involved.
Ralph
re: Pair of Pairs
There are many possible scenarios. I have one that does have the weights 180 apart, sometimes.
re: Pair of Pairs
OK, I want to guide this discussion back to what I'm asking for. From these posts it is clear that we have trouble understanding the English translation from John Collin's book, let alone the German. What if the translation is not quite correct? Don't get me wrong; I'm not knocking the book or the translator. All translators can make errors in judgment when choosing which word to use or how to phrase something. Translating is not a perfect science.
Can someone take a closer look at any possible alternate ways of translating this passage?
I'm leaning toward what Ralph says. I think there may have been two weights on one side of the wheel, probably one heavy and one light. These two weights flip or swing in some manner. Maybe they connect to a pair on the other side. Does the original German support this idea or contradict it?
Anyway, I'm mostly interested in knowing more about what the original German might say or mean. In this thread I'm not interested in other peoples pet theories of how Bessler's wheel worked, or even in discussing my own pet theory. So please, I'm looking for analysis of the original German text.
Can someone take a closer look at any possible alternate ways of translating this passage?
I'm leaning toward what Ralph says. I think there may have been two weights on one side of the wheel, probably one heavy and one light. These two weights flip or swing in some manner. Maybe they connect to a pair on the other side. Does the original German support this idea or contradict it?
Anyway, I'm mostly interested in knowing more about what the original German might say or mean. In this thread I'm not interested in other peoples pet theories of how Bessler's wheel worked, or even in discussing my own pet theory. So please, I'm looking for analysis of the original German text.
re: Pair of Pairs
Jim_ mich,
Now without going into my own design which is my opinion of Besslers mechanics of his one directional wheel. That is how I interpret it.
Send the quote to me in original German and I will forward it to Denis for his version. He has indicated that he has educational interest in old German terms. With it I will send a translation of your opening post that states what you are looking for.
Ralph
In an attempt to stay on topic, IMO there are pairs of weights that are not connected to another pair on the other side. Nor do I believe that weights in pairs would necessarily have to be of different mass or weight. My interpretation would be to say that each pair of weights displaces another pair ending up in a catch up transference that never catches up.I'm leaning toward what Ralph says. I think there may have been two weights on one side of the wheel, probably one heavy and one light. These two weights flip or swing in some manner. Maybe they connect to a pair on the other side. Does the original German support this idea or contradict it?
Now without going into my own design which is my opinion of Besslers mechanics of his one directional wheel. That is how I interpret it.
Send the quote to me in original German and I will forward it to Denis for his version. He has indicated that he has educational interest in old German terms. With it I will send a translation of your opening post that states what you are looking for.
Ralph
re: Pair of Pairs
Jim, send it to Tinhead (Rainer) for translation. He is native German.
I would remind everyone not to automatically assume that one weight moves in while one moves out necessarily means out on the descending side & in on the ascending side. That's just the sort of word play JB would have loved to misdirect imo.
I would remind everyone not to automatically assume that one weight moves in while one moves out necessarily means out on the descending side & in on the ascending side. That's just the sort of word play JB would have loved to misdirect imo.
re: Pair of Pairs
Fetcher,
Bessler said there were levers, He does not go into detail of the lever usage. I believe they are the connection between the paired weights and in no way are they connected to the wheel, or the axis.
Am I wrong, I was under the impression that tinhead (Rainier) had already translated the quote in question and the consensus was that it matched Mike's provided to John.
Ralph
This is my point, and one that I have tried to get across without revealing the whole story behind my design since January a year ago.I would remind everyone not to automatically assume that one weight moves in while one moves out necessarily means out on the descending side & in on the ascending side. That's just the sort of word play JB would have loved to misdirect imo.
Bessler said there were levers, He does not go into detail of the lever usage. I believe they are the connection between the paired weights and in no way are they connected to the wheel, or the axis.
Am I wrong, I was under the impression that tinhead (Rainier) had already translated the quote in question and the consensus was that it matched Mike's provided to John.
Ralph
re: Pair of Pairs
Did I translate it already ? .. can't remember to be honest. Real life keeps me busy like hell and ... and imagine that... haven't found someone yet who would sponsor me so that I can get Bessler crazy 24/7 *laugh*
The problem with Bessler is, trying to translate it AND cleaning it up so that it seems to make sense doesn't work. You really have to investigate sentence by sentence and then look at the context. In my opinion the translation in John's book to too 'clean' loosing some of the word games Bessler used.
for example .. craftsmanship ... he definitly is not mentioning that, he uses 'Kunstwerk' as in artwork/ a piece of art. Sure it could also be interpretet as craftsmanship, but I think there we have to be very carefull.
Those 'small' differences in translation/interpretation can make huge differences.
another one ... there is nothing mentioned about pairs!!! He states 'zwei und zwei' = two and two ... again, can be interpreted as pairs, BUT thats NOT what he said. Pairs .. might suggest they are somehow equal .. two and two doesn't make a statement like that .. just two and two, whatever it might be.
'A Thing takes the outer position' ... see it ... A THING .. this doesn't even refer to the 'two and two'. There is no connection in the context that would for sure say 'They take the outer position'. Here Bessler introduces 'The Thing' ...
I think we have to be very carefull, I bet he was counting on simplifications as we do them. Conneting the 'twos' in our mind with pairs, thinking he is talking about those moving in & out etc. Leading us on the wrong track.... just my opinion.
Cheers,
Rainer
The problem with Bessler is, trying to translate it AND cleaning it up so that it seems to make sense doesn't work. You really have to investigate sentence by sentence and then look at the context. In my opinion the translation in John's book to too 'clean' loosing some of the word games Bessler used.
for example .. craftsmanship ... he definitly is not mentioning that, he uses 'Kunstwerk' as in artwork/ a piece of art. Sure it could also be interpretet as craftsmanship, but I think there we have to be very carefull.
Those 'small' differences in translation/interpretation can make huge differences.
another one ... there is nothing mentioned about pairs!!! He states 'zwei und zwei' = two and two ... again, can be interpreted as pairs, BUT thats NOT what he said. Pairs .. might suggest they are somehow equal .. two and two doesn't make a statement like that .. just two and two, whatever it might be.
'A Thing takes the outer position' ... see it ... A THING .. this doesn't even refer to the 'two and two'. There is no connection in the context that would for sure say 'They take the outer position'. Here Bessler introduces 'The Thing' ...
I think we have to be very carefull, I bet he was counting on simplifications as we do them. Conneting the 'twos' in our mind with pairs, thinking he is talking about those moving in & out etc. Leading us on the wrong track.... just my opinion.
Cheers,
Rainer
re: Pair of Pairs
I admit this part about the work driving itself from many seperate pieces of lead has me curious. It makes me think of a domino type of effect, where many are needed to reset the effect.
Last edited by Michael on Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
re: Pair of Pairs
Tinhead, would you honour us with a complete translation of everything you have?
Re: re: Pair of Pairs
Ufff, most of it is just in my head, no need for me to write it down. But if you can tell me what areas you are interested in I will try to do my best.Michael wrote:Tinhead, would you honour us with a complete translation of everything you have?
Cheers,
Rainer
re: Pair of Pairs
All of it?
Edit. How about A.P. to start?
Edit. How about A.P. to start?
re: Pair of Pairs
I agree with Tinheads interpretation of two and two, and that it doesn't mean it is four even. Two and two also could mean one of each seperate from each other, one here having a relationship with one there, and the one here also having a relationship with another one, so there is two here, and two there, but only three all together.