Symmetrically Balanced Systems – are they able to develop useable torque ?

[AgingYoung]

Ralph,

I was just thinking about this and it occurred to me that the torque on the shaft of a wheel turning could be measured. Depending on the position it was rotating the earth would torque it's shaft and you could measure it. You could also get around that by putting the whole shebangs on casters.

As a Foucault pendulum swings the earth moves under it and the pendulum appears to change paths over the course of the day. The further you are to a pole the more the plane of oscillation is. That same effect would torque the shaft of a working wheel. It would be a different case if it were at the equator.

Gene

[Fletcher]

Edit : A continued look at Symmetrically Balanced Systems.

Steve .. here is a link to a web page called 'hyperphysics'. There is also linked to the hyperphysics page one called 'hypermath' which is also a great source of information.

Follow .... mechanics > fluids ... to read up on fluid dynamics if you become interested.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html


What particularly interests me about fluids is that they have all the properties of solids re mass, inertia etc & additional facets over & above shape restricted solids. Obviously they require containment because they are viscous but can be morphed into any shape you desire with the use of bellows or pistons.

The thing you might enjoy is that they lend themselves very well to a 'connectedness principle' as in 'hydraulic principles' & the fact that with water there is a chain analogy due hydrogen bonding cohesive forces between the molecules re siphoning in a vacuum. You can also develop buoyancy or floatation force as well, so they are very versatile.

This means that a force developed at one position can be instantly transferred to another part of the wheel. This is because fluids have very slight compressibility allowing transmission of forces as outlined by Pascal's Theorems etc.

It probably should be noted that force from pressure in fluids is only dependent on a fluids density, the depth you are measuring the pressure at & the surface area acted on. It has nothing to do with the weight or mass or volume of fluid above it re 'the hydostatic paradox'.

An interesting aside is that gravity causes that very slight compressibility which creates the well known pressure gradient (i.e. gradient :- a requirement that every known engine exploits to date) but the fluid's density effectively doesn't change with moderate depth increase, enough to effect a contained liquids CoG or mass distribution. That could be a useful quirk of nature that might be able to be exploited.

Anyway enough rambling on from me for now.

"...Here it is empty, there it is full."

I never thought of that as a give away because the acceleration rate would belie the fact that it was already so OU.

Here's a hypothesis to consider to answer your question Steve :

If you had a 'symmetrically balanced system' that produced unequal forces due to a unique use of, or modification of, the pressure gradient found in fluids, then you could potentially use that force to get the mech to pull itself around a one-way rachet drive without displacing the CoG of the wheel itself.

Then you would have a wheel balanced at all times but able to develop useable torque which would accelerate the wheel very rapidly, without the usual hindrances of shifting solid weights around internally within the wheel & the resultant & ever present lowered CoG & 'punctum quietus' leading to keeling, to deal with.

Edit : Diagrams for discussion to follow shortly.

[Fletcher]

A series of diagrams to follow. The first few are not symmetrically balanced but are there to get the reader attuned to fluids, bellows &/or pistons & start thinking about how buoyancy & pressure might act. Also so that I don't have to explain every aspect of each diagram ;)

The unsupported areas mentioned in the legend show the "hydrostatic paradox' i.e. some might expect an unsupported weight of fluid to provide an up thrust on the bellows/piston equal to its weight. This is not so as force from pressure is only dependent on the displacement area times the height of the imaginary column (i.e. volume of displacement less weight of pistons & connecting rods = net buoyancy force).

[Fletcher]

In the above diagrams a ready reckoner for calculating buoyancy or floatation force is to simply calculate out the weight of fluid (water in these examples) that would be displaced by the phantom piston arrangement less the weight of the piston & connecting rod itself to give a net force.

In this case if we assume that the pipe work & pistons are circular & the same diameter then piston surface area is calculated using pye*r*r & the displacement volume is piston area * height. Since 1 litre of water weighs 1 Kg then we can quickly calculate the gross buoyancy force the pistons exert.

However .... Work Done = force * distance.

N.B. pressure in fluids is linear & increases with depth therefore in order for the pistons to move upwards a volume of water must move underneath the pistons & into the boot or expandable sleeve. The penalty is we get a mass or weight of water at the rim at the 6 o'cl position which ultimately defeats us, leading to keeling because we cannot overcome its moment with the buoyancy force generated.

For reference buoyancy is caused by an imbalance in pressures at top & bottom piston faces. Pressure acts in all directions & perpendicular (normal/right angles) at any horizontal level so the top piston has less pressure acting downwards than the bottom piston acting upwards. The pressure differential drives the movement of the bellows/pistons. Because the pressure gradient is linear the force is undiminished over the distance of the travel unlike a spring for example.

The horizontal pistons have no net force generated because they have equal & opposite pressures acting thru a constant length connecting rod which means no work can be done.

These relationships lend themselves well to description using vectors of magnitude & direction which I will attempt to represent in the next set of modified diagrams.

[ken_behrendt]

Fletcher...

After all of the fluid has sloshed around and through the pipes of the designs you are offering and moved the various pistons about, HOW is all of this supposed to chronically keep the CG of the system to one side of an axis of rotation?

From what limited studying of hydraulic / pneumatic devices that I've done, they do not appear to offer any real advantages over simpler solid "dry" systems that would use metal weights.


ken

[Michael]

We know you have a bias against hydralics Ken but can you give Fletcher a chance to get going, I 'd like to read what he has to say.

[Fletcher]

Fletcher... After all of the fluid has sloshed around and through the pipes of the designs you are offering and moved the various pistons about, HOW is all of this supposed to chronically keep the CG of the system to one side of an axis of rotation?

Ken .. perhaps you'd like to re-read the thread/topic title, hold it in your memory for more than a nano second & with just a we bit more effort & intuition ruminate on it's possible meaning & direction, given what I've just posted up as a lead in.

The point is I'm trying to come up with designs that are "Symmetrically Balanced" i.e. there is NO drop, move or shift of CoG relative to the axis of rotation.

I then want to explore here with the members interested, potential ways to modify or mitigate the pressure gradient found in fluids to allow a torque differential to be created which solely drives the wheel i.e. these will not be unbalanced wheel designs in their final form.

Now, I'm building diagrams then quickly writing commentaries in between running my business etc so I do what I can when I can. More today hopefully, to help you see where I'm going with this Ken.

I'm sure that my last posit about modifying the pressure gradient is going to prove a worthy adversary & more than sufficient challenge for your intellect to wrestle with Ken.

I look forward to your input & creative energies but for every interested member to be able to knowledgeably contribute to this topic we have a bit of tedious collective learning to do first.

[fAtnhapy]

You have to KNOWLEDGEABLY contibute? Dang, Ok I'm out.
fAt

[Fletcher]

The diagrams below represent an attempt at a Symmetrically Balanced System based on hydraulics. I have kept the diagrams as uncluttered as possible whilst still trying to convey the principle in general.

They are liquid analogues of the Mechanical Tensioning Device I started the thread with & a few iterations on from them.

Hydraulic Systems have the advantage over straight mechanical devices in that there is no drop in CoG required when morphing (shape shifting) the device to develop tension forces which would otherwise lead to keeling.

The tension/compression forces are replaced by pressure in fluids which of course are created by gravity.

Each piston is connected to a parraelelogram which interacts with the others in the arrangement via connecting rods & is a further attempt to use the toy page clues. Others might see a similarity to the AP diagram in angles of opening & closure etc & the 1/4 moves a 1/4 moves 4/4's etc.

I have shown the force from pressure in fluids as vectors showing estimated direction & magnitude to show how they develop with depth in a fluid. N.B. the communication tubes are there to show a fully connected system. If the 2 hydraulic halves of the wheel mech were kept separate the vectors would look different.

A New Perspective To An Old Problem ?

What I have attempted to do is look at ways of solving Bessler's mechanism from a new perspective i.e. not looking for an unbalanced wheel design & all the inherent problems of keeling, CF etc, & trying to come up with a Balanced System that could generate torque by manipulating the environment.

That would neatly side step the problems of shifting the CoG & meet the requirement to quickly accelerate up to speed from a standing start whilst developing relatively continuous power output, especially if 2 of these mech's were placed in a wheel together in a complimentory fashion.

To summerise, the problem now becomes one of finding a way to modify the environment to change the pressure gradient to our advantage, rather than trying to 'trade height for width' to create torque to turn a wheel, which no one has solved for centuries.

I have looked at 3 or 4 possibilities to modify the force development from pressure in liquids to date.

I invite everyone else's comment, discussion & contribution to this new take on an old problem but especially how we might modify the pressure gradient to our advantage.

[Vic Hays]

If you use a one way (check) valve, any motion of the fluid will exert a drag and torque on the inside of a hydraulic wheel.

[Fletcher]

Attached is a simplified concept of a symmetrical hydraulic wheel.

The parrallelogram could be replaced by cord's & pulley's etc if anyone is wondering but it serves to show a connectedness.

Modify or mitigate the force developed from pressure in a liquid acting on a piston face (or set of opposing pistons) & you can create a torque difference to drive a wheel.


Vic .. are you able to give more detail or perhaps a picture of what you are suggesting ?

[Vic Hays]

Fluid movement within most hydraulic systems is at the expense of a lot of drag. If the pistons are moving then that also means that the fluid is moving. If the fluid moves randomly no net force wull occur. If the fluid moves in a circular path it will drag the mechanism with it. A system of valves can accomplish this. Wether this can be used to create pm or not is debatable. Hydraulic systems are notoriously inefficient.

[Michael]

Fletcher, your thread has given me food for thought, spot on as the popular saying goes. I've come up with something, maybe we can work out an arrangement, I can't do everything. This system is different becuase it is an out of balance wheel but that out of balance is created by fluid pressure.

[Michael]

Courtesy of Bill.

[Fletcher]

Sounds good Michael. PM me & I'm sure we can work something out to your satisfaction.