Pair of Pairs

[rlortie]

winkle,

No Ted from Chicago did not write a book to my knowledge. It is said that he translated Besslers writings. For another to author.

Ralph

[amateur]

ps

In the wallpaper doodle, there appear to be two different weight sizes. Three pair of one size, and three pair of another size.

I do not perceive the visually suggested difference in sizes to be 4:1, however.

[ken_behrendt]

Ralph wrote:

Ken,

There is one problem with your comparison of you Carpenters Boy design and Besslers interpretation. Your driver and driven will seek and find balance within themselves.

Bessler's paired weights are constantly seeking but never finding equilibrium, as they are obviously not attached to the wheel. He is referring to the individual paired weights and not the wheel as a whole mechanism.

I am less concerned about where the CG of the lifter weight and drive weight are within a particular lifting unit in my Capenter's Boy's Wheel than I am with the location of the CG of all of the 8 lifter and 8 drive weights in the design. It is that composite CG that, ultimately, will determine if the design will run or not.

Once again, you say that the weights are "obviously" not attached to the wheel. And, once again, I ask where is one supposed to attach them?



Preston wrote:

Based on some of my recent drawings & ideas on shifting mechanisms, I also support Ralph's statements that there is no indication that there is a heavy and light weight in the drive and shifter relationship. They may weigh the same. Their pressure point in the wheel and application of torque will change their value to the COG of the wheel.

To this I respond by saying that I have tried many two weight shifting systems and, like Bessler, found from bitter experience that they are unworkable. Again, you suggest that it is the point to the wheel at which a weighted lever's pivot is attached that determines torque and the location of the CG of an array of weights. And, again, I must point out that it is only the positions of the weights involved that will determine the location of their composite CG. The attachment points may determine the way that the composite CG will move during wheel rotation, but it is irrelevant as far as determining the position of that CG at any instant.


I have seen much speculation over the last few months on this Discussion Board about what Bessler may have meant by his "connectiveness principle". Many may assume, from viewing the Maschinen Tractate illustrations, that this must describe some intricate collection of ropes that connect the shifting weights within a wheel together. However, I am starting to realize that this "principle" could just be Bessler's way of saying that he found a way of creating shifts in the individual pairs of weights on a wheel (remember, there would be 8 such pairs symmetrically surrounding the axle) such that the CG of all of the weights involved always remains on one side of the wheel's axle. Of course, when it came time to provide the details of how this shifting was done, he would then switch to his vague and evasive mode of writing.

As I continue to watch this thread develop, I see everybody slowly but surely being led to the Carpenter's Boy's Wheel design. So far, I have found it to fulfill all of the clues provided in the Bessler literature. Yet, it is disarmingly simple in construction. For those who are reading this thread, but have not yet signed up for membership so that they can access the Community Buzz forum, I've reattached the Carpenter's Boy's Wheel design below.


ken

[Michael]

Edit.

[Michael]

Ken, your answer is to the axle. This means not the supposed "spokes" of the wheel.

[Fletcher]

Amateur ... I have looked at the wall paper doodle many times in the past & I am still unsure what you are referring to.

How about putting up the visuals for us to discuss with you ?

I'm thinking you mean the spiral shapes that look like coil springs or spiraling water found in each corner/quadrant ?

[AgingYoung]

axel:(Etymology: Axel Paulsen died 1938 Norwegian figure skater) a jump in figure skating from the outer forward edge of one skate with 1 1/2 turns taken in the air and a return to the outer backward edge of the other skate.

axle:1 a : a pin or shaft on or with which a wheel or pair of wheels revolves b (1) :what you really mean.

Gene

[Michael]

No I meant Axel.

[amateur]

Amateur ...
How about putting up the visuals for us to discuss with you ?

My previous attempt at visuals:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... aper#16001

That thread might be a more appropriate place to discuss them as well.

[Joel Wright]

Amateur The wall paper design always reminded me of a conveyor elevator.This is my impression of how one might look,within a wheel.

[ken_behrendt]

Joel...

I like your "weight elevator" design, but there is a problem with it. It would have to be powered by the torque of the wheel and, in operation, would produce a counter torque on the wheel that would exactly equal the driving torque in magnitude. Result: no motion would be possible.


ken

[Joel Wright]

Ken have you considered the accelerated mass concept that will occur as the roller weight drops off the end of the weight unload ramp in your caculations.This should add some driving punch to the outer wheel.``````````````````Hi Ken I threw that paint visual of the weight elevator on the board to illustrate what I feel the "wall paper design"might represent.I don't think there's potential in it either.

[jim_mich]

I've spent a few days now working with my pair of pairs idea, calculating and refining it. I think I've got it figured it out! I'm exhausted from working late into the evening the last few nights. I need to catch up on some sleep and catch up on some other stuff. Then I'll attempt a wm2d model to test the idea when I'm fully rested and alert.

This new pair of pairs wheel idea of mine really looks like it has potential! For my own best interest I need to keep it confidential, so I hope none here feel offended by me not disclosing it on the forum right now. I'll let you guys know one way or the other as to if it works or fails. It is so simple that wm2d should have no problem handling it.

[SeaWasp]

Jim.. I have a pairs of pairs idea too. Very simple, but Working Model spit the dummy at it! I was in the process of creating a build, but real world problems caught up with me and I had to put it on hold! I will also post this if it fails in a real world test. But like you I think that it has potential!

The cool thing about it, is that it is symetricaly balanced at start up and loses this balances once the weights begin to fall. Should be interesting!

[ken_behrendt]

Jim wrote:

This new pair of pairs wheel idea of mine really looks like it has potential!

I was happy to read this. I think, like me, you are embracing simpler designs and I noticed that the word "latch" was not mentioned anywhere!

Yes, is seems like the "pair of pairs" approach will, finally, be the true path to success in unraveling the Bessler mystery.

Good luck with your design...


ken