Iris wheel

[racer270]

Fletcher, thank you this is precisely what I am attempting to do. Given the theory that there is no free lunch!!! What I am asking is ....do you think that negating the neccessity of a lift of the weights at the 5,6, and 7 positions by essentially making them mechanically neutral will have enough of an effect to overcome the dreaded;(neutral effect). In your models did you attempt any of the theories of the mechanical lift IE;( the pinching effect).(catches and latches), (a freefalling left side falling on springs). Were your models anything like this, in theory? Thank you very much, GORDY

[Fletcher]

Hi Gordy,

Glad to help where I can. Yes the designs were similar in concept to yours though I never tried to harness the pinching effect to that degree. I also suspected that the oil cloth was no coincidence & was possibly an indication of water sloshing around the bottom & used for floatation. I briefly looked into it but using a bath type arrangement for "proof of principle" then for some reason went back to latches & springs (I used gate latches available from the hardware store, that gravity unlocked depending how they were positioned). It's a long time ago now but I think I convinced myself that the pool of liquid used to float the arms would affect the COG equally each side of the axle therfore of no net benefit (bear in mind this was not to augment the pinch effect you have demonstrated which adds another dimension to explore).

Speaking for myself, many of us may have examined similar concepts as others from time to time but that does not qualify me to comment on or knock anybody elses attempts. Sometimes silence is golden ! I would be unqualified to do so as to date there has been only one known graduate of that particular course ;-)

I like to think that I can learn more every day & that someday I'll have accumulated enough periphial knowledge to reason out the principle & mechanism. It is just as likely however that a "newby" to use Scotts phrase will examine an old idea discarded by others with fresh eyes & no pre-conceived notions about what will or won't work & ... wammo ... a little intuitive genius solves the riddle. I do think that in this case "the principle comes b4 the mechanism". I'm trying really hard to find an OU principle that gives a constantly out of balance mech & not affected by Centrifugal Forces which will tend to pin the internal weights to the rim at highish rpm's.

More power to your elbow Gordy, keep going.

Regards Fletcher

[racer270]

jonathan hows the new bild coming?????

[Jonathan]

It's not new, a few days old, but I have a picture of it now. The floats are hard to see, they are clear and yellow and are held on by electrical tape. This version has strings to help launch the arms, simply because it didn't work without them and it couldn't hurt to try. This was designed to run sitting in a pool, not like Gordon's design where the water could be hidden within, that would be unnecessarily hard to make. This is the same 15 inch ruler.

[racer270]

did the 6oc latch work,or did you try the( pinch) onley?

[Jonathan]

There's some pinch from the weight of the arms, and a ton more in the water, but I didn't use any latches because the pinch in the water was so good that I saw no point. The water made it pinch up to maybe 4 o'clock. Not to mention that it would be tricky to make latches that work reliably with K'nex.

[racer270]

is it possible that it was too deeply submerged i.e., causing a bouyancy effect at the 4 oclock which theoretically could induce a counter rotational effect, that of bouyancy too early, which would subtract from the rotational forces?? Gordy
p.s. flywheel to appendage weight ratios seem pretty equal, where was water level in comparison to the radius. thanks

[Jonathan]

The water was probably an inch or two below the circumference of the hub. I don't think the mass ratios are that crucial, as long as they aren't rediculus. I can add weights to the wheel, replace the tape and try again though.

[racer270]

jonathan, i think bessler's wheel weighed about 700 pounds, each cylidical weight was approximately only 6-8 pounds multiplied by 8 weights the flywheel to weight ratio would be approaching 100:1 . in your last post you mentioned that the arms would barely submerge without the floats. from the posted picture it doesn't appear that the floats would be the only part in the water, maybe a slight relocation of the floats, i.e., (make them the lowest part of the arm) because by the picture I can't tell whether the arms you are using would have an effect that could be detrimental to the theoretical goal. thanks gordy

[Jonathan]

It wasn't my last post, it was in an email or pm. What I said is that the arms are almost neutrally bouyant, but are slightly heavier than the water. I think a fingernail-diameter bubble would make it float, the pill bottles are plenty. The 100:1 mass ratio is conjecture, because we really don't know what was in there, it could be that 90% of the weight was at the end of a pendulum in order to provide a false ground on which ot mount things inside the wheel, and it was only there because any connections to the outside would require revelation of the mechanism.
I couldn't quite follow your thoughts on the arms, but I think you could be misunderstanding what it's like when they're in the water, the arms on the bottom are just barely submerged, because of their curve, and for the most part stick straight out horizontally over the surface.
I will put weights on the wheel, move the floats to a mid-arm position, remove the strings, try it again, and take a picture of it in the water.

[racer270]

thanks jonathan,:the only posible variable would be to attempt a left via bouyancy of the fall out weight,sooner via the 6 or 7o.c. weight. gordy

[Jonathan]

I've made those changes, still doesn't work. It's hard to see the weights, one is kind of clear at 1:30, it is a little block blob. There are four such black blobs, each made of three magnets, each 90 degrees from the next. I'm not sure how much they weigh, I know it's not nearly the 100:1 ratio though, but I'm still of the opinion that the ratio isn't going to help this design.
I want to stress though that I still think there could be something to the pinching idea, just not using water this way to do it.

[racer270]

thanks jonathan for the builds ,and support. oh yeah nice pool 10/4

[coylo]

It's a shame when your unrewarded for your efforts. The original designs grace was in its simplicity, but now with with the water and everything I think the concept is getting a bit desperate.

I will share a concept if I have time soon.

Love the pool pic Jonathan, what must the neighbours think?

[racer270]

oh i don't think we're done we were just looking at it as a possibility,and for a simplistic answer vs. a complicated mechanism.