The Bessler Curse

[SeaWasp]

Gene.. Yes I did know that the bear had white fur.. The answer was a bit of a riddle within itself!

[Michael]

brappp.......

[Michael]

It's really only one question Gene, you don't start with what do you say, you start with, what will he say etc. I see you know the riddle.

[bluesgtr44]

Michael...got me so far...still trying to figure it out...


Carnivorous animals have their eyes in the front....non-carnivorous animals are on the side....check it out!


Steve

[ken_behrendt]

Michael wrote:

I invite anyone to try and answer that riddle.
Gene there is a correct answer to be had by asking one and only one question to one guard. No trick. This is a riddle that doesn't give people a false start, but some riddles do that. I wasn't posting this to try to make that point. I just think this is a good riddle.

Actually, I think this riddle has a simple solution. All one has to do is ask either of the guards a question that is obviously either true or false. If that guard gives the correct answer, then the other guard must be the liar and the other guard can then be asked if his door is the freedom door. If he says "yes", then one must use the other door, but if he says "no" then one must use his door.

If, however, the first guard is questioned and gives the incorrect answer, then the other guard is the truthful one. That other guard is then asked if his door is the freedom door. If he answers "yes", then that door must be taken. But, if he answers "no", then the other door must be taken.

So, what would the "test" question be that is obviously either right or wrong? It can be any question such as "Is the moon made of green cheese?" or "Do people have ten fingers on each hand?" or "Does 9 minus 3 equal 6?".


Gene...

I went to John's site and read his attempt at explaining how gravity might not be a conservative force. I think that, in certain physical situations (as were found in Bessler's wheels, of course) that that would, indeed, be the case. That is, gravity would lose the "conservative" nature of the forces it helps create between two nearby masses like a weight in the machine and the Earth.

However, I am of the opinion that this novel effect is due to the asymmetry of having the CG of an array of rotating weights chronically displaced from the axis of rotation of the wheel that carries them. I think an entirely new law of motion will be required to rationalize this effect, but I tried to make an attempt at doing so with a sketch I made a while ago and which I am reattaching below for everybody's perusal.

In my approach, we must calculate the changes in gravitational potential energy that take place within a rotating gravity wheel differently depending upon whether an opposed pair of weights is mostly moving vertically or mostly moving horizontally. When they are mostly moving horizontally, then the gravitational forces applied to them are conservative, but, when they are mostly moving vertically, then the gravitational forces on them cease to be conservative.


ken

[Michael]

One question and one question only Ken.

[ken_behrendt]

Michael...

Oh, only one question from either guard, but not two questions! Hmmm...that's a rough one.


How about this:

Ask either guard, "If I asked the other guard which was the door to freedom, what would he reply?"

The answer is going to be the wrong door so I should then pick the opposite door if I want to escape the room unharmed.

A truthful guard would tell you the liar's wrong answer. The liar would tell you the opposite of what a truthful guard would answer.


On second thought, that wasn't that complicated after all!


ken

[winkle]

ask any question you know the answer to

the untruthful guard will lie giving a wrong answer go out the other door

or

the truthful guard will give the answer you know to be true go out his door

[John Collins]

John...is this in your book?

Quote:
and I have formulated a long argument which demonstrates analogously how gravity does not always act as a conservative force.

No Steve, it's in the new book, but I'm in the process of abridging it and putting it on my web site. I'm waiting a response from a US professor who has kindly supported my conviction that Bessler was genuine ever since 1997 when the book first came out. He's checking what I've written for inconsistencies. I'll post information here as soon as its ready.

John Collins

[AgingYoung]

When I started this thread I had the question 'what to do if you could manage to make a wheel that would turn?' I really didn't know what I would do with a gravity wheel. I obviously would like to get some cash for the idea. I had my ideas back then yet they've evolved into what I presently think. I'm going to enter the randi with the idea, proving that gravity isn't a conservative force. That's worth a million dollars. That's a heck of a payday and I could be selling the idea short. It is possible that a gravity wheel similar to Bessler's could be scaled up with a modern control system and crank out some significant power. It would be a luger or slow moving wheel with enormous weight. Maybe after several hundred million years they might have to replace the weights. :)

It's good to have some idea what you plan on doing with a gravity wheel if you could make one. I'm glad I've resolved the matter.

Sometimes I search the site and I notice recurring ideas. One idea was that 'it's only going to be one more year... maybe two but that's it.' When someone has a hot idea they may say something like that just knowing they're the one that's going to do it and at the most it's going to take them a year. Eventually someone's going to be right.

If I were very 'smart' I wouldn't say things like that. It only causes people to get more serious about their ideas and work harder. It could cause someone to beat me to the randi. I guess when I get a neat idea my iq drops. I think anyone that has had a very good idea has been there. If you don't tell someone you're going to explode but you don't want to discuss all the details of your idea.

I hate to even say this yet my current idea is a pair of pairs. A while back I was looking at the idea and I could see that I'd have 15.9% of the total weight in average torque if I could get them to shift when I wanted them to. I just couldn't figure out how to manage it. Earlier this evening I was playing around with some straws and I noticed something very fascinating. It might just shift that mechanism for me. Who knows. I'm awake but I'm too tired to concentrate now. Some time tomorrow I'll begin that build.

My current idea is a combination of two ideas. One mechanism shifting the other. At the top horizontal travel will be exchanged for vertical lift and at the bottom it's more of the same. In both of the shiftings opposite yet equal reactions will have negligible effect on the shaft. It seems right now that the average torque is going to be a single weight (out of the 4) and it is continuous. That's hard to believe. I'll know more after I build it.

I really think that this is the year that someone is going to make a wheel that turns. A lot of people are getting a lot of ideas and eventually someone's going to make this wheel. I naturally am hoping it's going to be me but I don't mind scaring the competition. hehe. A very inexpensive way to look at your ideas is with straight pins and drinking straws and cardboard disks. I've had some monster piles of drinking straws hung off of cardboard and they move about as I expected them to. It's not a permanent construction but you can get a pretty good visual of your idea in motion. You can make some rapid modification also.

Gene

[Michael]

I don't think you came to that by yourself Ken, also if you look at the previous posts you'll see that Gene and I already gave it away. Nice try though.

[rlortie]

This bear riddle threw me by the following, which makes me wonder it it was phrased right.

A man is at a camp and sees a bear. He runs like crazy due south for a mile then heads east for another mile then north for another mile and he's back at his camp and sees the bear again eating his food. What color is the bear?

THis implies two seperate camps. If it were the same camp then obvioulsy he he is at the North pole and the Bear would have white fur.


Ralph

[AgingYoung]

Michael,
I think Ken moves so fast he misses some things. He may be plagiarizing my answer to get back at me for plagiarizing his quote the other day. Dang I should have put one of these babies on it! ©2006

I've completed the two mechanisms and have them in a common structure but I don't have their motions interconnected. It's a monstrosity. It's a pile of 25 straws held together with a little hot melt glue and 16 straight pins with marble power (two of them). It's about 14" x 10". When I figure out how to interconnect their motions I'll take some measurements and see what I have. I'll post the results.

I'd like to say that this is probably not the one that's going to work. If you have a great idea you can continue to lally gag and goof off. This isn't the sort of thing that should be putting any pressure on you at all.

.....................................................Gene

ps edit: Good point, Ralph. Both camps are the same but it was vague. If you can find the link on this page it will take you to the post that I first considered using a pair of pairs and sliding pivots (in december).

[Michael]

Check this one out. As many people respond as you can.

A woman meets a certain man at her mothers funeral. Although the man is a close friend of the family this is the first time they meet. They get off splendidly and there is an attraction there. She forgets to get his phone number and they don't see each other after the funeral. A few months later she is arrested for the murder of her sister. Why did she do it?

There is no correct answer. This is a type of personality profile.

[ken_behrendt]

Michael wrote:

I don't think you came to that by yourself Ken, also if you look at the previous posts you'll see that Gene and I already gave it away. Nice try though.

Gene wrote:

I think Ken moves so fast he misses some things. He may be plagiarizing my answer to get back at me for plagiarizing his quote the other day.

Actually, I did not recall reading either of your solutions to the riddle and the solution I came up with was my own. Even when I gave my prior solution that required asking two questions, I still did not recall either of your solutions. If I had recalled them, then I certainly would not be asking two questions when only one was allowed.

I do often skim threads quickly in an effort to leave the gravy and just consume the meat. This process is made easier since about 90% of all thread verbiage is low nutrion gravy. However, sometimes when using such a time saving method, I can miss an important detail and appreciate it when someone can point it out to me.


Gene...

I do not dismiss your simplistic methods for "building" gravity wheel models. In my earlier days, I would sometimes construct small cardboard models of various wheel mechanisms to, at least, get a preliminary "feel" for how a larger edition would perform. I would often just take a heavy cardboard disk about a foot in diameter and pin it at the center to a block of wood. Then I would stick thumbtacks through the back of the cardboard disc to form pivots on the front that I would attach more cardboard lever arms with their glued on steel nut weights. I then used thin cylindrical slices of rubber from pencil erasers to press onto the tips of the thumbtack points to hold the weighted levers in place. I found that these simple models could be quickly fabricated and allowed me to try different designs without having to do more involved construction in the shop. Now, of course, I do all of my "building" on WM2D and am well pleased with it despite the fact that I have no positive results to show to date.


ken