Ken snpssaini is correct in that you have past the design many times.
This is what I was saying to you in my privite e-mail.
It now looks as if Ralph too has the design.
Why you do not act on this, I wonder.
Snssaini seems to know he is correct.
I believe he is.
Complete this drawing and make the machine.
Moderator: scott
re: Complete this drawing and make the machine.
JB Wheeler
it exists I think I found it.
it exists I think I found it.
re: Complete this drawing and make the machine.
If you are going to reveal the last drawings to make up the final clues on 1st april, is this going to be an april fools joke? I wait to see what happens.
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ken_behrendt
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re: Complete this drawing and make the machine.
Snpssaini wrote:
Well, please do tell me what "basic rule" I have been ignoring. I am assuming that you have found this rule and that it is used in the design of your own wheel.
Many times on this Discussion Board, posters will claim that they have found the answer and that it is right out there in plain sight on one of Bessler's drawings. Others claim that they just "know" the secret and have used it to make a wheel.
However, why is it that with all of these people that have the secret (which they only rarely share), that nothing ever seems to come of it?
ken
From begning you are ignoring a very basic rule.Which was always in front of your eyes. If you will look for its solution from a different point of view the solution will be with you.
Well, please do tell me what "basic rule" I have been ignoring. I am assuming that you have found this rule and that it is used in the design of your own wheel.
Many times on this Discussion Board, posters will claim that they have found the answer and that it is right out there in plain sight on one of Bessler's drawings. Others claim that they just "know" the secret and have used it to make a wheel.
However, why is it that with all of these people that have the secret (which they only rarely share), that nothing ever seems to come of it?
ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: Complete this drawing and make the machine.
Jim_mich wrote....
If this works then you have one year to patent it in the US since you have now publicly disclosed your idea. No one else can patent it now. By disclosing it you have given up all patent rights in most other countries. Of course this assumes that the idea works, since a patent on a machine that does not work as stated in a patent makes the patent invalid.
ken,
I want to know from you that, is the above statement of jim is true or not as I don't know anything about this.
I afraid that if I release my final drawings in this forum, then someone should not claim my idea as his.
And if anyone is having that right now he/she is most welcome to share it with us before me.
Because afterwards that idea should be considered as mine. Which actually is my original idea.
Ken, I respect you a lot, and I want to ask you that, can I consider you responsible enough to share my drawings with you?
I think that after sharing the drawings, people will do minor changes in their drawings and will claim that the workable design is their from beginning.
If my mechanism is used in most of the bessler's drawing then they will be workable.
I think that this machine's prototype will arrive later in front of everyone but machines based on this idea will arrive before.
What advice would you like to give me, that should I keep giving the clues or should I release my drawings.
Thanks
Snpssaini
If this works then you have one year to patent it in the US since you have now publicly disclosed your idea. No one else can patent it now. By disclosing it you have given up all patent rights in most other countries. Of course this assumes that the idea works, since a patent on a machine that does not work as stated in a patent makes the patent invalid.
ken,
I want to know from you that, is the above statement of jim is true or not as I don't know anything about this.
I afraid that if I release my final drawings in this forum, then someone should not claim my idea as his.
And if anyone is having that right now he/she is most welcome to share it with us before me.
Because afterwards that idea should be considered as mine. Which actually is my original idea.
Ken, I respect you a lot, and I want to ask you that, can I consider you responsible enough to share my drawings with you?
I think that after sharing the drawings, people will do minor changes in their drawings and will claim that the workable design is their from beginning.
If my mechanism is used in most of the bessler's drawing then they will be workable.
I think that this machine's prototype will arrive later in front of everyone but machines based on this idea will arrive before.
What advice would you like to give me, that should I keep giving the clues or should I release my drawings.
Thanks
Snpssaini
I make a perpetual motion machine. like b w. It is a very simple mechanism. It is on paper since 1998 . My first prototype is not working because of small error. Now I am trying to make its final working model .
re: Complete this drawing and make the machine.
snpssaini,
I highly recommend a book published by Nolo Press titled 'Patent It yourself' by Patent Attorney David Pressman. This book covers almost everything about filing US patents and includes a lot of general information about patents in other countries. It gets revised almost every year so buy the latest version.
A US patent can only be obtained by the inventor. If someone else other than the inventor files for a US patent and it is proven that he/she did not invent it, then that patent is invalid. Other countries grant patents to the first one to file. Some countries automaticaly grant every patent that is filed. These are almost worthless since to be inforced they must first be proven valid in court.
The US has what is called a 'Provisional Patent Application' or PPA that can be filed for very little cost and will preserve your patent rights for one year. This is not a patent nor even a patent application. But if you fully and completely disclose and describe your idea in the PPA and later file a formal patent application within a year then the PPA will maintain (or hold) your patent rights so you don't loose them because of premature disclosure. Of couse the patent must eventually be granted for the PPA to be of any value.
If any of you think that you MIGHT someday patent something, then I suggest reading the book now. It takes a while to read and understand the book, so don't wait until you have a viable idea. Do the learning/reading now so you will have the knowledge when you need it. Or you can buy your local patent attorney his next car and have him advise you.
I highly recommend a book published by Nolo Press titled 'Patent It yourself' by Patent Attorney David Pressman. This book covers almost everything about filing US patents and includes a lot of general information about patents in other countries. It gets revised almost every year so buy the latest version.
A US patent can only be obtained by the inventor. If someone else other than the inventor files for a US patent and it is proven that he/she did not invent it, then that patent is invalid. Other countries grant patents to the first one to file. Some countries automaticaly grant every patent that is filed. These are almost worthless since to be inforced they must first be proven valid in court.
The US has what is called a 'Provisional Patent Application' or PPA that can be filed for very little cost and will preserve your patent rights for one year. This is not a patent nor even a patent application. But if you fully and completely disclose and describe your idea in the PPA and later file a formal patent application within a year then the PPA will maintain (or hold) your patent rights so you don't loose them because of premature disclosure. Of couse the patent must eventually be granted for the PPA to be of any value.
If any of you think that you MIGHT someday patent something, then I suggest reading the book now. It takes a while to read and understand the book, so don't wait until you have a viable idea. Do the learning/reading now so you will have the knowledge when you need it. Or you can buy your local patent attorney his next car and have him advise you.
re: Complete this drawing and make the machine.
Thanks Jim
Snpssaini
Snpssaini
I make a perpetual motion machine. like b w. It is a very simple mechanism. It is on paper since 1998 . My first prototype is not working because of small error. Now I am trying to make its final working model .
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AgingYoung
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re: Complete this drawing and make the machine.
Jim,
Thank you for the good advice. I have a specific question concerning patents. Suppose you're granted a patent in America. Does that preclude someone obtaining a patent and making your product in china? Also if someone in America would want to buy that chinese patented idea does the American patent prevent them? You might suspect what where I'm going with this. I think the patent system worldwide might be obsolete.
Consider your idea of varying compression. There must be a million ways to sunday to do that and also when to do that. I don't think those (when and how) ideas can be patented. What's to prevent someone to patent those ideas in china and marketing that product to consumers in America?
Gene
Thank you for the good advice. I have a specific question concerning patents. Suppose you're granted a patent in America. Does that preclude someone obtaining a patent and making your product in china? Also if someone in America would want to buy that chinese patented idea does the American patent prevent them? You might suspect what where I'm going with this. I think the patent system worldwide might be obsolete.
Consider your idea of varying compression. There must be a million ways to sunday to do that and also when to do that. I don't think those (when and how) ideas can be patented. What's to prevent someone to patent those ideas in china and marketing that product to consumers in America?
Gene
Working Model 2D
[It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.
[It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.
re: Complete this drawing and make the machine.
Variable compression engine designs and usage have been around since I was old enough to comprehend them which would have been in the late 1940's
They were used on high compression diesel engines. The batteries and starter motors of the day left a lot to be desired. To start the engine the compression lever was thrown open. The starter wound the free spinning engine up to a substantial rpm, the compression lever was then slowly closed and the engine would fire. Caterpillar Tractor also used a compression release device where the engine was started with a small attached gas engine called a pony motor.
Not to many years ago, I believe it was Cadillac that came out with a V8 that would run on four cylinders when cruising and then six when light acceleration was desired and on all 8 when you punched it.
I am sure that Jim knows where he is going, but I am curious. With todays low octane fuel, I would think that if one were to increase compression you would also have to have vary the timing accordingly, other wise your engine would decrease in life span due to pre-ignition knock.
Ralph
They were used on high compression diesel engines. The batteries and starter motors of the day left a lot to be desired. To start the engine the compression lever was thrown open. The starter wound the free spinning engine up to a substantial rpm, the compression lever was then slowly closed and the engine would fire. Caterpillar Tractor also used a compression release device where the engine was started with a small attached gas engine called a pony motor.
Not to many years ago, I believe it was Cadillac that came out with a V8 that would run on four cylinders when cruising and then six when light acceleration was desired and on all 8 when you punched it.
I am sure that Jim knows where he is going, but I am curious. With todays low octane fuel, I would think that if one were to increase compression you would also have to have vary the timing accordingly, other wise your engine would decrease in life span due to pre-ignition knock.
Ralph
re: Complete this drawing and make the machine.
snpssaini
I have asked Ken the same questions.
He always will tell you to just give it away to the forum.
To do this would make him (edit) along with many of us happy.
If you reveal it on a public forum, You are truly giving it to the world.
I think you will still be considered very important to us and a few other, but you may consider filing a Provisional Patent Application for protection.
Maybe Jim_Mich can post a copy or link to the form for you.
Even though it is not total protection, I suggest you mail a copy of your design to yourself, and keep it unopened. It will show some proof that you did design and have the idea first.
Proof of the first person to have an idea, is usually the real inventor.
I have asked Ken the same questions.
He always will tell you to just give it away to the forum.
To do this would make him (edit) along with many of us happy.
If you reveal it on a public forum, You are truly giving it to the world.
I think you will still be considered very important to us and a few other, but you may consider filing a Provisional Patent Application for protection.
Maybe Jim_Mich can post a copy or link to the form for you.
Even though it is not total protection, I suggest you mail a copy of your design to yourself, and keep it unopened. It will show some proof that you did design and have the idea first.
Proof of the first person to have an idea, is usually the real inventor.
Last edited by Wheeler on Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JB Wheeler
it exists I think I found it.
it exists I think I found it.
re: Complete this drawing and make the machine.
Jim I believe that in Canada if you want to file for a Canadian patent only and you aren't a citizen here you need a representative living in the country. Is it the same for the U.S.A.? Would snpssaini need someone to file there?
re: Complete this drawing and make the machine.
Gene, each country has it's own patent laws. Optaining a patent in one country does not prevent the invention from being made and/or sold in another country. A US patent protects the invention from being made and/or sold in the US only. A Chinese patent protects the invention from being made and/or sold in China only.
Since patent laws are only good in their own country, many countries have signed reciprocal patent treaties. This means that after you have a patent in a first country you have a certain amount of time to obtain a patents in other countries based on the patent in the first country. You can be making and selling the invention while obtaining the foreign patents, which can take a number of years.
A PPA does almost the same job as having a couple of uninterested people read, understand, sign and date a record of your invention. This proves you had the idea on a certain date. If you later file for a US patent within a reasonable amount of time, this document (or a PPA) will help to prove that the idea was yours on that date. In the US patent priority is base on the 'first to invent' while most of the world uses 'first to file'.
In the US you have one year to file a patent application after public disclosure while most of the world grants patents only if filed before public disclosure. So if you want patents in many countries then you must file a PPA or a regular patent application BEFORE any public disclosure. Many patent attornies encourage you to keep your invention confidential until the patent and/or application is published.
Wheeler, mailing a copy to yourself is an old idea that is almost worthless. The unopened envelope cannot state/witness in a court of law. It cannot swear under oath and be questioned as to what is the truth.
Michael, who can file where and when gets a little tricky. This is all explained in David Pressman's book.
Since patent laws are only good in their own country, many countries have signed reciprocal patent treaties. This means that after you have a patent in a first country you have a certain amount of time to obtain a patents in other countries based on the patent in the first country. You can be making and selling the invention while obtaining the foreign patents, which can take a number of years.
A PPA does almost the same job as having a couple of uninterested people read, understand, sign and date a record of your invention. This proves you had the idea on a certain date. If you later file for a US patent within a reasonable amount of time, this document (or a PPA) will help to prove that the idea was yours on that date. In the US patent priority is base on the 'first to invent' while most of the world uses 'first to file'.
In the US you have one year to file a patent application after public disclosure while most of the world grants patents only if filed before public disclosure. So if you want patents in many countries then you must file a PPA or a regular patent application BEFORE any public disclosure. Many patent attornies encourage you to keep your invention confidential until the patent and/or application is published.
Wheeler, mailing a copy to yourself is an old idea that is almost worthless. The unopened envelope cannot state/witness in a court of law. It cannot swear under oath and be questioned as to what is the truth.
Michael, who can file where and when gets a little tricky. This is all explained in David Pressman's book.
re: Complete this drawing and make the machine.
Jim
I know it is an old idea, but what if one documents are on video, with signing of signatures on legal paper with a Notary Public in the film, and verification of when the Public official term expired.
Are videos ever proof?
I have all my videos and signed witnesses on the videos, and important ones with the Notary Public also in the close up signature verification process.
I know it is an old idea, but what if one documents are on video, with signing of signatures on legal paper with a Notary Public in the film, and verification of when the Public official term expired.
Are videos ever proof?
I have all my videos and signed witnesses on the videos, and important ones with the Notary Public also in the close up signature verification process.
JB Wheeler
it exists I think I found it.
it exists I think I found it.
re: Complete this drawing and make the machine.
Wheeler, it sounds like you have things very well covered. The film and the documents can be used as evidence, but the important thing would be having the Notary Public 'person' as a witness if ever needed. Just the fact that the Notary Public is available if called upon usually precludes that person from ever being called to witness.
Witnesses have much more value in court than documents. But the documents show that you have the witnesses available so usually the witnesses are not actually needed. It is like having a video or document where a witness describes the crime he saw. After being shown the video or document the criminal will ask for a deal and the witness never needs to appear.
Witnesses have much more value in court than documents. But the documents show that you have the witnesses available so usually the witnesses are not actually needed. It is like having a video or document where a witness describes the crime he saw. After being shown the video or document the criminal will ask for a deal and the witness never needs to appear.
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ken_behrendt
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re: Complete this drawing and make the machine.
Snpssaini asks:
Wheeler...
Yes, video documentation can help to establish one's claim to priority on an invention, but it has limitations. There is always the possibility that the claimant (and I'm not suggesting you would do this) might fake the video to make it look like the invention was working or that it even existed. Also, any dated documents in the video could have been obtained and then forged to "back date" them in an effort to make it appear that the invention they are associated with was created at a much earlier date.
In any event, if an inventor does have to go to court to protect his invention, then he had better have some serious funding in his war chest to pay for his patent attorney fees. Most amateur inventors simply do not have the funds available for this sort of corporate level legal warfare.
The advantage of revealing one's invention on a public discussion board such as this is that each post has a date and a time which can, at least to the day, verify when one's idea was publicly revealed. Yes, that might prevent one from obtaining a patent in a foreign country, but I think that, eventually, international patent laws will be unified now that there is so much concern about the theft of "intellectual property" worldwide. Even if one did obtain a US patent on an invention, then, if it is stolen and manufactured by a foreign company, there would probably be very little that the inventor could do about it.
For example, yesterday I attended a local flea market in my town. As I went from table to table looking for a bargain, I noticed that the new "hot" item was those see-through plastic flashlights that contain a sliding magnet and coil which are shaken to inductively charge up a capacitor that then powers a small light emitting diode that produces light.
They sold for a mere $5 USD and one of the vendors told me that they were the same ones being sold on tv for about $20 USD. Upon inspection, I realized that while the basic design was identical, the one's at the flea marker were cheap Chinese made imitations of the real thing and much poorer in quality. The genuine one's on tv are a patented product, yet there I was holding a version manufactured in a foreign company and being sold in the USA. I wondered just how much royalties were being lost by the original inventor of these devices that day...
As far as me trying to get a patent on a gravity motor is concerned, I have, after much thought, reached the conclusion that to do so would be a bit dishonest. IF I ever figure out Bessler's secret, then I would only be presenting something he already invented. It would not truly be my invention and I would feel guilty trying to pretend that it was. Bessler's inventions now belong to the world in my opinion. However, if someone can take his basic design and then improve it, then that person should be able to obtain a patent on the improvement. I have no problem with that and reserve that option for myself in the future.
ken
Thanks. Yes, I would be very pleased to see your complete drawings for your design and give you my evaluation of it. I would, of course, keep your design strictly confidential unless you personally authorized me to reveal it publicly. However, I will only consider doing this if I am free after any evaluation to reveal my conclusions about the workability of the design here to the other Discussion Board members.Ken, I respect you a lot, and I want to ask you that, can I consider you responsible enough to share my drawings with you?
Wheeler...
Yes, video documentation can help to establish one's claim to priority on an invention, but it has limitations. There is always the possibility that the claimant (and I'm not suggesting you would do this) might fake the video to make it look like the invention was working or that it even existed. Also, any dated documents in the video could have been obtained and then forged to "back date" them in an effort to make it appear that the invention they are associated with was created at a much earlier date.
In any event, if an inventor does have to go to court to protect his invention, then he had better have some serious funding in his war chest to pay for his patent attorney fees. Most amateur inventors simply do not have the funds available for this sort of corporate level legal warfare.
The advantage of revealing one's invention on a public discussion board such as this is that each post has a date and a time which can, at least to the day, verify when one's idea was publicly revealed. Yes, that might prevent one from obtaining a patent in a foreign country, but I think that, eventually, international patent laws will be unified now that there is so much concern about the theft of "intellectual property" worldwide. Even if one did obtain a US patent on an invention, then, if it is stolen and manufactured by a foreign company, there would probably be very little that the inventor could do about it.
For example, yesterday I attended a local flea market in my town. As I went from table to table looking for a bargain, I noticed that the new "hot" item was those see-through plastic flashlights that contain a sliding magnet and coil which are shaken to inductively charge up a capacitor that then powers a small light emitting diode that produces light.
They sold for a mere $5 USD and one of the vendors told me that they were the same ones being sold on tv for about $20 USD. Upon inspection, I realized that while the basic design was identical, the one's at the flea marker were cheap Chinese made imitations of the real thing and much poorer in quality. The genuine one's on tv are a patented product, yet there I was holding a version manufactured in a foreign company and being sold in the USA. I wondered just how much royalties were being lost by the original inventor of these devices that day...
As far as me trying to get a patent on a gravity motor is concerned, I have, after much thought, reached the conclusion that to do so would be a bit dishonest. IF I ever figure out Bessler's secret, then I would only be presenting something he already invented. It would not truly be my invention and I would feel guilty trying to pretend that it was. Bessler's inventions now belong to the world in my opinion. However, if someone can take his basic design and then improve it, then that person should be able to obtain a patent on the improvement. I have no problem with that and reserve that option for myself in the future.
ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: Complete this drawing and make the machine.
Ken you are wrong; there is no dishonesty involved. Since Bessler never disclosed how his wheel worked then it cannot be used as prior art. As far as patenting goes, it's as if Bessler's wheel never existed. If some closet inventor were to invent some new great invention, but never told anyone about it then it would be like it was never invented, even if people had witnessed the invention in action. This has happened in the past. Radio (voice transmission) was demonstrated by an inventor some years before Marconi invented wireless telegraph. It's unknown exactly how he did it since he never revealed his secret after people accused him of witchcraft. There are even rumors of radio (not voice) existing way back in the middle ages.Ken wrote:As far as me trying to get a patent on a gravity motor is concerned, I have, after much thought, reached the conclusion that to do so would be a bit dishonest. IF I ever figure out Bessler's secret, then I would only be presenting something he already invented. It would not truly be my invention and I would feel guilty trying to pretend that it was. Bessler's inventions now belong to the world in my opinion.
So Ken, if you (or anyone) were to discover how to make a PM wheel, there is no way to determine if it is the same as Bessler's wheel since we don't know what Bessler's wheel was like. Since there is no record of how to build a working PM device, and since there currently in no known working PM devices, then any PM device that works is patentable. Of course the PTO will not believe you without a working model as proof or possibly a very good clear believable explanation.