Complete this drawing and make the machine.

[Clarkie]

There is truth in what you say John but there are also ways to get a patent without getting a D notice in the UK but its more difficult in the US.

There are many cases of filing a patent and then giving away free licenses, this is to prevent others from patenting the idea, Volvo did it with the lap and diagonal seat belt.

To just release the knowledge is not enough in today's world, even if you just wanted to give it away.

Pete.

[John Collins]

Fair comment Pete - I know you have a lot of experience in patenting both here and internationally, and I can appreciate the advantages of patenting and then giving out free licenses.

John

[ken_behrendt]

If there is, in fact, only one way of achieving mechanical perpetual motion and Bessler found it, then anybody who achieves a working gravity wheel would be trying to patent something that Bessler already invented. I would not feel comfortable trying to do something like that even if I did put many years of effort into the research. However, I would see know problem with someone trying to patent an improvement on Bessler's basic mechanism.

Of course, all of this is academic until and unless we actually do find his secret mechanism...


ken

[ME]

Of course, all of this is academic until and unless we actually do find his secret mechanism...

But if you do, you should have thought about the consequences of the actions you want to take. This 'free-energy-device' should not drain your own energy (or your wallet's), and this 'free-energy-device' shouldn't be encaged. The solution is a huge dilemma even without a device.

BTW: what about copyrights if you can't/won't patent it? Can a device be patented once you have written a book about it?

A description of a machine could be copyrighted, but this would only prevent others from copying the description; it would not prevent others from writing a description of their own or from making and using the machine

Source: http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/do ... whatis.htm
This means a 'No'?

[Clarkie]

Ken,
As Bessler never allowed the workings of his wheel to get into the public domain, his work cannot be considered prior art.

Therefore the first person to disclose a working wheel based on what we belive to be his principles, will be the inventor.

You can't use what you think someone did to block a patent, it must of been published at sometime before the patent was filed.

Pete.

[John Collins]

Pete, what if someone were to build a wheel, and they obtained the design by deciphering clues and encoded stuff written by Bessler? Proof of the code could be submitted to relevant authorities.

John Collins

[Michael]

Doesn't matter John. That was centuries ago and nothing was patented back then. Nothing was disclosed in the public domain. In fact, if you were to invent something and I was to invent an improvement on that something I could patent that. You have to be very careful to make a good patent. Take the MEG. There is absolutely nothing new in that device yet the use is different so it is patentable.

[ME]

If you know how to make it work, you can find clues everywhere (eg the bible, grandma's cookbook, Latest CD of Diana Ross, remarks of Oprah Winphrey.. etc)

[jim_mich]

I assume that a 'D' notice in the UK is similar to a 'secrecy' gag order in the US where the PTO tells the inventor that he must keep the invention secret due to national security reasons. When you look closer this can include 'economic' security reasons.

A simple PM device would pose both an economic and a military security problem. A free energy device would cut into energy taxes. A free energy device would be an advantage to any army because availability of fuel is critical to fighting war. So you run the risk of a secrecy gag order from governments.

If you were to finally discover how to make a working PM device then you face some potential problems in bringing it to the world.

Many think a patent will hinder the implementation of a PM device, but I assure you that the opposite is true. Setting up a company to make any new device involves financial risk. Very few investors will take that risk without some type of financial edge. A patent provides a needed financial edge. The very essence of a patent consists of an exact precise description of the device so that anyone (with proper skills) can build the device and have it work as stated. Since none have been able to build Bessler's wheel using his writings and drawings proves that they are not descriptive enough to be considered 'prior art'.

To me it is very clear that if you choose to 'give it away' you should still obtain a patent. Assume you disclose your invention freely to the world. It then becomes what is called 'prior art' and will prevent anyone from obtaining patents on you exact design. Suppose a very intelligent engineer looks at your design and designs around it. He files for and is granted broad patents that cover most all other possibilities except your original design. He now has control, which is what you were trying to prevent. A broad well-written patent by you would have prevented him from designing around your one single design.

One problem is most people will not believe you, so you must offer proof of how and why your PM device works. But if you show someone how your wheel works they may get control of your device. There are specific things you should do which prevents others from controlling your idea. The simple fact is you cannot give away something that you don't have. A patent is a government paper that titles you as the owner and controller of your invention. Once the government gives you title to your invention then you can give it away if you so desire.

To limit the affect of any potential secrecy gag order and to encourage the government to grant your patent you need to file for a patent and then immediately publicly show a working model of your device before there is time for any secrecy gag order to be imposed.

Just my opinions.

[Wheeler]

I agree all inventions are from clues.
The computer was an invention taken from clues from many who did not want the clues to be known.
Everything we do is from a clue.

[Wheeler]

So Jim if we build it will you handle the patent and fast action needed?

Bottom line is you give wonderful advice, but would you risk taking a piece of the pie and working for it?

It would take everything you got to carry this one through, don't you agree?

[Michael]

To me it is very clear that if you choose to 'give it away' you should still obtain a patent. Assume you disclose your invention freely to the world. It then becomes what is called 'prior art' and will prevent anyone from obtaining patents on you exact design. Suppose a very intelligent engineer looks at your design and designs around it. He files for and is granted broad patents that cover most all other possibilities except your original design. He now has control, which is what you were trying to prevent. A broad well-written patent by you would have prevented him from designing around your one single design.

yep, amen jim.

[ME]

Let me be clear, I am not against patents because ones rights should be preserved. But one must admit it is kind of tricky when you have a powerful PM device.
Maybe a university could back me up with a patent on their name, and me as beneficiary.

[jim_mich]

ME, most countries grant patents to the "first to file" whereas the US is different. It grants patents only to the "first to invent". This is why in most countries you must file before any public disclosure. In the US you can file up to one year after a public disclosure. When you file you must declare the name of the original and first inventor.

If you disclose first before filing you will not be able to get patents in most other countries.

[pstroud]

I will be very clear about my intentions. If I get a perpetual motion gravity wheel to work, I intend to bring in a partner or two with greater knowledge to help maximize the designs potential and setup proof of its capabilities (running a generator of electricity, etc). We (partners and I) shall seek a patent and then market the functionality for sale.

When selling, it is important to re-design the wheel for "portability". It will certainly sell better if it is portable, can be sold in a simple kit that can be clicked together, with a snap-on generator that is up ann running to create needed power. (Yes, I know it has a thousand other uses but I can think if 3-4 of them that will certainly have the biggest impact on humanity.) My co-worker, Frank, envisions small linked wheels running in the trunk of a car charging batteries to run the car, 24 hrs a day.

I personally am totally against selling to an oil company that may be the highest bidder and will shove it in the bottom of their file drawer. I think the patent for the wheel can be sold and money can be made in a manner that benefits all of humanity around the world. However, if that did not occur (as with Bessler) and the only option was getting rich from retiring the idea in an Oil companies file cabinet, I would release it free to the world to enjoy an reap the benefits for free.

Preston.