The problem with Patents...

[Jester]

My first post, so be gentle! I was wondering if anyone had advice to give on Patents and Design IP. I rang a Patent (UK) agent up today to push a few ideas out there and see how difficult it would be if someone came up with a workable wheel.

From a UK point of view, she advised that a Patent Application could be made for a technical product and that it could take up to four years to go through, thatÂ’s provided that it didnÂ’t fall at a number of hurdles (presumably they would help you with this). She also said that it might be possible to go down the Intellectual Property route in terms of a design.

I then tentatively told her what the design would be for, hoping she’d still be on the phone after I said the words “Perpetual Motion”. Not dismissing me as a total loon, she explained that it would be very difficult for the UK Patents office to pass a ‘Perpetual Motion’ Patent as they deem it impossible. I drew her attention to the PM Patents that are already publicly available to browse within the UK Patents database and I was told “perhaps they were more willing to accept people’s money in those days”.

Certainly I was left with the impression that trying to pass a Patent under the category of PM would be difficult and perhaps it could be passed under another category. I should come in and discuss the design, and then it could be dissected by a Physics expert to see how the problem of Patenting could be approached. So, I would have to reveal how it works not to one person, but many in order to try and get it protected with a Patent for the UK only which would take up to four years.

IÂ’m starting to get a perspective on BesslerÂ’s paranoia.

The most damning thing I was told was that there is a trade off for the protection the Patent gives you. That trade off is “twenty years”. Yep, you only have exclusivity for twenty years then it becomes Public Domain in the UK.

Imagine that, you could have given your entire life to a single concept, made every sacrifice and finally got a Patent. Then twenty years later, anybody can do what they like with it. DoesnÂ’t seem quite fair, does it?

[ME]

To patent a PM is widely discussed on this board.. maybe a summary could be place here...

I was thinking about the patent/copy rights of Microsoft, Nasa and Toyota.. I don't think they want us to rebuild their Operating Systems, Engines or Robots?

[Clarkie]

Jester,
Build a working model first as there is no alternative.

Do that and I, and others, will help you.

The patent system in designed to help bring new ideas to the world, if you can't make your pile out of the first 20 years then you have a problem with your idea.

Pete.

[Jester]

Thanks for the advice Pete, certainly a more enthusiastic reply than the last.

So if I were to take you up on the offer I'm curious, what collective knowledge could you and others bring to the table?

[graham]

Imagine that, you could have given your entire life to a single concept, made every sacrifice and finally got a Patent. Then twenty years later, anybody can do what they like with it. DoesnÂ’t seem quite fair, does it?

Hey Jester ,remember that old saying "You can't take it with you when you go"
And then again who's to say you will still be around for another 20 years !!

Your first post and here you are looking to collect. Do you have a working prototype ? No Jesting please .

Graham

[Jester]

Hi Graham,

WOW straight the point, not even dinner or a movie, who do you think you are? Me? :p

When I was referring to the twenty years, I was speaking from a more emotive stand point than a financial one. Bit like having a child and being told down the line it's not yours anymore.

So, as requested, no "Jesting". I do not at this point in time have a working prototype. I do however intend to do some shopping tomorrow and I will be buying some parts that I need.

In a few weeks time I have a slot where I'll be occupying a quiet cottage and there I will put it together. What will happen, who knows...

Should it turn and refuse to stop, I will film it doing so.

So Graham (or indeed Pete), do you have a working prototype?

[graham]

Welcome to BW .Com Jester.
We're all in the same boat here, nothing moving YET .

Good luck with your efforts , yer gonna need it. :-)

Graham

[ken_behrendt]

Jester...

Welcome to the Discussion Board and good luck with your design. I agree with Clarkie...make a working model first and then worry about the patent process later. Yes, if you are claiming perpetual motion, most patent offices will give you a real expensive workout as you try to obtain a patent. Hopefully, you'll be able to attract some financial backers that can help fund the legal expenses that you will have as you proceed.

As for this Discussion Board, I have seen many interesting designs since I joined over a year ago...but, sadly, none of them (including my own) was workable. Maybe you'll finally be the exception!


ken

[Clarkie]

Jester,
No I do not have a working model yet but, like a lot of other people here, I'm working on it and have been for 8 years.

Good luck with your idea, if you get it to work then I can help with patenting and possibly finance.

I'm based in West Sussex, where are you?

Pete.

[Jester]

Ken, Pete,

Thank you for your encouragement, I shall endevour to become the exception.

I did go shopping on Saturday. I've suffered a period of frustration because I know what parts I need to put this together, but finding them was starting to become a bit of a headache. Also this is a situation where the components I find dictate the size of the wheel, not having the luxury of customised parts. I still don't know yet how big this first wheel I'm going to build is going to be.

Pete, if it works, we'll definitely be talking. I'm based in Newcastle upon Tyne.

Jester

[AgingYoung]

Jester,

There is a way to make parts that isn't all that expensive. First make a clay form of the part you'd like to make. Then pour plaster of paris around the clay. The plaster won't stick to the clay. You need to consider the form of the part you're trying to make and where you want the mold to separate.

Now coat the plaster mold with an oil. You can use wd40, olive, etc. Then you mix some plumber's putty (enough to fit in your mold) and press it into the plaster. Let it set up and remove it from the mold.

Hope that helps.

Gene

[ken_behrendt]

Gene wrote:

Then you mix some plumber's putty (enough to fit in your mold) and press it into the plaster.

You must mean, although you do not state so, that one press the putty form of epoxy into the plaster mold. That will, indeed, harden and form the part. Regular plumber's putty is soft and meant to seal things like drain pipe flanges and the trim around sinks.


ken

[Jester]

Does anyone know where I could lay my hands on a commercially available wheel that turns very lightly, something I could use as a basis for my build. I'm thinking something like a Funfair Big Wheel, but Childsized.

I'd need it to come in at around the 45cm diameter mark.

Jester

[graham]

How about a bicycle wheel Jester ? Nice free running bearings should be just the job for you.
The junk yards must have a good supply . Take off the tyre and away you go .

Graham

[AgingYoung]

Ken,

Yes, you need to use an epoxy putty.


2 oz. epoxy putty hardens like steel in 20 minutes. Plugs, seals, mends, patches and is non-toxic. For use on metals, wood, glass, masonry, ceramics... $3.83

Gene