Osama's Message to America!

[ken_behrendt]

Well, this thread certainly seems to have heated up a bit. Here are my thoughts after reading through it.


We live in an age when the tensions due to economic, religious, and political differences are all being exacerbated by the fact that there are more people on Earth than ever before. The potential for loss of life through wars, diseases, and natural disasters are also greater than ever before.

I do not think that raising people's fear levels with a constant preaching of ancient failed doomsday prophecies and other conspiracy type theories is in anyway going to prepare humanity for the challenges that lay ahead of it. Only global cooperation and a de-emphasis on the next quarter's "bottom line" will provide a workable solution. I am not sure if one man, a kind of President of Earth's Unified World Government (who would immediately be branded as the greatly overdue Anti-Christ by the Christian fundamentalists) would be the answer either. The decisions that will have to be made in the future might need to be carefully evaluated by a central planning board whose membership would be subject to planetary elections. They could be somewhat like the members of the US's present Supreme Court. They would make decisions based on consensus and all such decisions would then be subject to review to determine their feasibility and / or performance. Nothing must be chiselled in granite, we need to be flexible as we struggle toward a more perfect global society.


Yes, I am afraid of the Muslim jihadists. But, I'm almost as scared of the Christian jihadists! I reached the conclusion several decades ago that religion, in any form, does not belong in politics. Unfortunately, it has managed to creep in over the years and we can see the results in the Middle East and, to a certain extent, in the Western powers.

I'm always amazed at how each side in a bloody war is convinced that they have God on their side. There's something about the "logic" of that which escapes me...



ken

[ken_behrendt]

Well, while America was sleeping, Osama's messengers delivered the following new message to America which has just appeared on Al-Jezeera television!

This thread started in January with his first message of the year to America. This is the second message to America and repeats some of his prior threats. I suspect that there will be a third and final message delivered in July of this year and, if the "offer' he makes in it is not accepted, then al-Qaeda's next attack on US soil will take place shortly thereafter...probably during the months of August or September.

Here's the second message in which I have highlighted noteworthy sentences:

Praise be to Allah who created the creation for his worship and commanded them to be just and permitted the wronged one to retaliate against the oppressor in kind. To proceed:

Peace be upon he who follows the guidance: People of America this talk of mine is for you and concerns the ideal way to prevent another Manhattan, and deals with the war and its causes and results.

Before I begin, I say to you that security is an indispensable pillar of human life and that free men do not forfeit their security, contrary to Bush's claim that we hate freedom.

If so, then let him explain to us why we don't strike for example - Sweden? And we know that freedom-haters don't possess defiant spirits like those of the 19 - may Allah have mercy on them.

No, we fight because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our nation, just as you lay waste to our nation. So shall we lay waste to yours.

No one except a dumb thief plays with the security of others and then makes himself believe he will be secure. Whereas thinking people, when disaster strikes, make it their priority to look for its causes, in order to prevent it happening again.

But I am amazed at you. Even though we are in the fourth year after the events of September 11th, Bush is still engaged in distortion, deception and hiding from you the real causes. And thus, the reasons are still there for a repeat of what occurred.

So I shall talk to you about the story behind those events and shall tell you truthfully about the moments in which the decision was taken, for you to consider.

I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.

The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.

I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.

The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond.

In those difficult moments many hard-to-describe ideas bubbled in my soul, but in the end they produced an intense feeling of rejection of tyranny, and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors.

And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.

And that day, it was confirmed to me that oppression and the intentional killing of innocent women and children is a deliberate American policy. Destruction is freedom and democracy, while resistance is terrorism and intolerance.

This means the oppressing and embargoing to death of millions as Bush Sr did in Iraq in the greatest mass slaughter of children mankind has ever known, and it means the throwing of millions of pounds of bombs and explosives at millions of children - also in Iraq - as Bush Jr did, in order to remove an old agent and replace him with a new puppet to assist in the pilfering of Iraq's oil and other outrages.

So with these images and their like as their background, the events of September 11th came as a reply to those great wrongs, should a man be blamed for defending his sanctuary?

Is defending oneself and punishing the aggressor in kind, objectionable terrorism? If it is such, then it is unavoidable for us.

This is the message which I sought to communicate to you in word and deed, repeatedly, for years before September 11th.

And you can read this, if you wish, in my interview with Scott in Time Magazine in 1996, or with Peter Arnett on CNN in 1997, or my meeting with John Weiner in 1998.

You can observe it practically, if you wish, in Kenya and Tanzania and in Aden. And you can read it in my interview with Abdul Bari Atwan, as well as my interviews with Robert Fisk.

The latter is one of your compatriots and co-religionists and I consider him to be neutral. So are the pretenders of freedom at the White House and the channels controlled by them able to run an interview with him? So that he may relay to the American people what he has understood from us to be the reasons for our fight against you?

If you were to avoid these reasons, you will have taken the correct path that will lead America to the security that it was in before September 11th. This concerned the causes of the war.

As for it's results, they have been, by the grace of Allah, positive and enormous, and have, by all standards, exceeded all expectations. This is due to many factors, chief among them, that we have found it difficult to deal with the Bush administration in light of the resemblance it bears to the regimes in our countries, half of which are ruled by the military and the other half which are ruled by the sons of kings and presidents.

Our experience with them is lengthy, and both types are replete with those who are characterised by pride, arrogance, greed and misappropriation of wealth. This resemblance began after the visits of Bush Sr to the region.

At a time when some of our compatriots were dazzled by America and hoping that these visits would have an effect on our countries, all of a sudden he was affected by those monarchies and military regimes, and became envious of their remaining decades in their positions, to embezzle the public wealth of the nation without supervision or accounting.

So he took dictatorship and suppression of freedoms to his son and they named it the Patriot Act, under the pretence of fighting terrorism. In addition, Bush sanctioned the installing of sons as state governors, and didn't forget to import expertise in election fraud from the region's presidents to Florida to be made use of in moments of difficulty.

All that we have mentioned has made it easy for us to provoke and bait this administration. All that we have to do is to send two mujahidin to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qaida, in order to make the generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses without their achieving for it anything of note other than some benefits for their private companies.

This is in addition to our having experience in using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers, as we, alongside the mujahidin, bled Russia for 10 years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat.

All Praise is due to Allah.

So we are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. Allah willing, and nothing is too great for Allah.

That being said, those who say that al-Qaida has won against the administration in the White House or that the administration has lost in this war have not been precise, because when one scrutinises the results, one cannot say that al-Qaida is the sole factor in achieving those spectacular gains.

Rather, the policy of the White House that demands the opening of war fronts to keep busy their various corporations - whether they be working in the field of arms or oil or reconstruction - has helped al-Qaida to achieve these enormous results.

And so it has appeared to some analysts and diplomats that the White House and us are playing as one team towards the economic goals of the United States, even if the intentions differ.

And it was to these sorts of notions and their like that the British diplomat and others were referring in their lectures at the Royal Institute of International Affairs. [When they pointed out that] for example, al-Qaida spent $500,000 on the event, while America, in the incident and its aftermath, lost - according to the lowest estimate - more than $500 billion.

Meaning that every dollar of al-Qaida defeated a million dollars by the permission of Allah, besides the loss of a huge number of jobs.

As for the size of the economic deficit, it has reached record astronomical numbers estimated to total more than a trillion dollars.

And even more dangerous and bitter for America is that the mujahidin recently forced Bush to resort to emergency funds to continue the fight in Afghanistan and Iraq, which is evidence of the success of the bleed-until-bankruptcy plan - with Allah's permission.

It is true that this shows that al-Qaida has gained, but on the other hand, it shows that the Bush administration has also gained, something of which anyone who looks at the size of the contracts acquired by the shady Bush administration-linked mega-corporations, like Halliburton and its kind, will be convinced. And it all shows that the real loser is ... you.

It is the American people and their economy. And for the record, we had agreed with the Commander-General Muhammad Ataa, Allah have mercy on him, that all the operations should be carried out within 20 minutes, before Bush and his administration notice.

It never occurred to us that the commander-in-chief of the American armed forces would abandon 50,000 of his citizens in the twin towers to face those great horrors alone, the time when they most needed him.

But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers, we were given three times the period required to execute the operations - all praise is due to Allah.

And it's no secret to you that the thinkers and perceptive ones from among the Americans warned Bush before the war and told him: "All that you want for securing America and removing the weapons of mass destruction - assuming they exist - is available to you, and the nations of the world are with you in the inspections, and it is in the interest of America that it not be thrust into an unjustified war with an unknown outcome."

But the darkness of the black gold blurred his vision and insight, and he gave priority to private interests over the public interests of America.

So the war went ahead, the death toll rose, the American economy bled, and Bush became embroiled in the swamps of Iraq that threaten his future. He fits the saying "like the naughty she-goat who used her hoof to dig up a knife from under the earth".

So I say to you, over 15,000 of our people have been killed and tens of thousands injured, while more than a thousand of you have been killed and more than 10,000 injured. And Bush's hands are stained with the blood of all those killed from both sides, all for the sake of oil and keeping their private companies in business.

Be aware that it is the nation who punishes the weak man when he causes the killing of one of its citizens for money, while letting the powerful one get off, when he causes the killing of more than 1000 of its sons, also for money.

And the same goes for your allies in Palestine. They terrorise the women and children, and kill and capture the men as they lie sleeping with their families on the mattresses, that you may recall that for every action, there is a reaction.

Finally, it behoves you to reflect on the last wills and testaments of the thousands who left you on the 11th as they gestured in despair. They are important testaments, which should be studied and researched.

Among the most important of what I read in them was some prose in their gestures before the collapse, where they say: "How mistaken we were to have allowed the White House to implement its aggressive foreign policies against the weak without supervision."

It is as if they were telling you, the people of America: "Hold to account those who have caused us to be killed, and happy is he who learns from others' mistakes."

And among that which I read in their gestures is a verse of poetry. "Injustice chases its people, and how unhealthy the bed of tyranny."

As has been said: "An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure."

And know that: "It is better to return to the truth than persist in error." And that the wise man doesn't squander his security, wealth and children for the sake of the liar in the White House.

In conclusion, I tell you in truth, that your security is not in the hands of Kerry, nor Bush, nor al-Qaida. No.

Your security is in your own hands. And every state that doesn't play with our security has automatically guaranteed its own security.

And Allah is our Guardian and Helper, while you have no Guardian or Helper. All peace be upon he who follows the Guidance.

Well, that's it. It has an ominous tone even though it does not go into detail about the upcoming attack on America. I expect that the next message will...


ken

[digitaljez]

What was your source for this transcript ? Is it supposed to be a complete transcript ? After hearing the BBC's analysis of it I would not recognise this as the same message. Also I cannot find the snippets quoted by them in this version. I don't know what to believe anymore. Somewhere I read a statement where he denied his involvement in 911 and now here he claims responsibility for conceiving the idea. This transcript says one thing, the BBC interprets it differently. How is a dummy like me supposed to make sense of it all ?

Is it just me or does :

He fits the saying "like the naughty she-goat who used her hoof to dig up a knife from under the earth".

lose something in translation - like any meaning whatsoever.

[ken_behrendt]

digitaljez asks:

What was your source for this transcript ? Is it supposed to be a complete transcript ?

That translation comes from Al-Jezeera and is complete and accurate.

When Osama says:

...like the naughty she-goat who used her hoof to dig up a knife from under the earth.

He is probably making reference to an Arabic story with a moral. The moral being that one should not push to achieve something too much because what is obtained my be injurious to oneself. Obviously, he is here saying that if America continues to remain involved in the Middle East, then we will regret the loss of lives that the terrorists will inflict on our people.


The important thing to note in this second audio tape message is that Osama is no longer just blaming the government of the USA for Al-Qaeda's continuing attacks against the West. Now, he is also including the American people! I can only assume by this change in who he blames that he is trying to justify (to himself, at least!) a heavy loss of life that he is hoping to achieve in his next terrorist attack on American soil.

I find this second message rather chilling in its implication and expect the next message to be even more unnerving!


ken

[Dave]

Its too bad we have to put up with this crap from Osama. If only the last President got him instead of having his golf game interrupted.

[digitaljez]

That translation comes from Al-Jezeera and is complete and accurate.

True ... but it is not his latest message. You are quoting the transcript of a video tape shown in November. However I don't imagine the basic message has changed unless he has undergone a conversion to Buddhism or something.

[ken_behrendt]

digitaljez...

Oops! Thanks for pointing that out to me. Yes, I did, inadvertently, post Osama's message of November last.

Here is an English transcript of his most recent audio message that was received by Al-Jezeera on April 23rd with interesting lines highlighted:

Praise be to Allah, Lord of the world, prayer and peace be upon our prophet Muhammad, his kin and all his companions.

Peace, Allah's mercy and blessing be upon you, as I am directing this speech to all the Islamic Umma, to continue talking and urging them to support our prophet Muhammad, and to punish the perpetrators of the horrible crime committed by some Crusader-journalists and apostates against the master of the predecessors and successors, our prophet Muhammad.

The holy verses of the Quran and the holy prophetic teachings have all clarified the need for according love, respect and obedience to our prophet. Allah, the Almighty, has made it a taboo to offend him, saying in the Quran those who harm Allah and his messenger would be damned and severely punished.

It was also confirmed by an authentic source that prophet Muhammad said no one could be faithful until he loves me more than he loves his parents, his sons and all other people. Therefore, the Umma has reached a consensus that he who offends or degrades the messenger would be killed. Such offence is regarded as kufr (infidelity).

We ask Allah to give his blessings to whoever decried the behaviour of the infidels who have offended the prophet in every part of the world, and blessings to those who have died in the process, while we vow to Allah to avenge for those whose blood have been spilled.

The West is incapable of recognising the rights of others. It will not be able to respect others' beliefs or feelings. The West still believes in ethnic supremacy and looks down on other nations. They categorise human beings into white masters and coloured slaves.

This is why they established institutions and enacted laws to maintain their supremacy by creating the United Nations and the veto power ... . They regard jihad for the sake of God or defending one's self or his country as an act of terror. US and Europe consider jihad groups in Palestine, Chechnya, Iraq and Afghanistan as terrorist groups, so how could we talk or have understanding with them without using weapons?

On their part, the rulers of our region consider the US and Europe as their friends and allies while looking at the jihad groups that fight against the Crusaders in Iraq and Afghanistan as terrorist groups as well. So how can we reach understanding with those rulers who deny us the right to defend ourselves and our religion without carrying arms?

The net result of their thinking is for us to abandon jihad and acquiesce to remaining as their slaves. This is impossible, God willing.

The Palestine question is a manifestation of such injustices when the allied forces of the Crusaders and the Zionists decided to hand over Palestine to the Zionists to establish a state after committing massacres, displaced the indigenous Palestinians and brought Jews from all over the world to settle in Palestine.

The ongoing injustice and aggression did not stop in the last nine decades, while all attempts to reclaim our rights and exact justice on the Israeli oppressors, were blocked by the leadership of the Crusaders and Zionists' alliance by using the so-called veto power.

Such attitudes were also reflected by their rejection of the Hamas movement and its victory in the elections ... . Their rejection to Hamas has reaffirmed that they were waging a crusade against Islam.

The US sought to reach southern Sudan, recruited an army of southerners, supported them with weapons and funding and directed them to seek separation from Sudan. Then it exercised pressure against Khartoum government to sign an unjust agreement which permits south Sudan to gain independence from the north within six years.

[Sudanese President Omar] al-Bashir and [US President George] Bush should have been aware that this agreement is not worth the ink by which it was written, and we do not accord the least concern to it. Nobody, whoever he was, has the right to accede an inch of the land of Islam and the south will remain an inseparable part of the land of Isalm, God willing, even if the war continued for decades.

The US was not satisfied by all the sedition and crimes, but went on to incite sedition, the largest of which was the west Sudan sedition by exploiting some disputes between the tribes and sparking a savage war between them that will spare nothing, prior to sending in Crusader troops to occupy the region and steal its oil wealth under the pretext of peacekeeping.

This is a continuous Crusader-Zionist war against Muslims. In this respect I am inviting the mujahidin and their supporters in the Sudan and other countries around, including the Arabian peninsula in particular, to prepare all that is needed for a long-term war against the Crusaders and thieves in western Sudan.

Our objective is obvious, that is defending Islam, the people and the land but not Khartoum government since our differences with them are so enormous, mostly when it backtracked in implementing the Sharia law and abandoned south Sudan.

I urge the mujahidin to get acquainted with Darfur state tribes and land and its surroundings, keeping in mind that the region is about to face the rainy season that hampers means of transport.

This is one of the reasons why the occupation was adjourned for six months. So it is imperative to speed up action and benefit from the time factor by stocking a large amount of landmines and anti-armour grenades such as RPGs [rocket propelled grenades].

What was the aim behind barring arms from the unarmed people in Bosnia and letting the Serb army to massacre Muslims and spill their blood for years under UN cover? It was a Crusader war against Muslims.

What was the aim of the pressure against Indonesia by the Crusaders countries until East Timor, 24 hours after a warning by the UN? A Crusader-Zionist-Hindu war against Muslims.

Meanwhile, a UN resolution passed more than half a century ago gave Muslim Kashmir the liberty of choosing independence from India and Kashmir. George Bush, the leader of the Crusaders' campaign, announced a few days ago that he will order his converted agent [Pakistan President Pervez] Musharraf to shut down the Kashmir mujahidin camps, thus affirming that it is a Zionist-Hindu war against Muslims.

With respect to Pakistan, some Muslims have done a good job by assisting their fellow Muslims, God bless them, but the Pashtun tribes must be aided after the Pakistan army devastated their homes in Waziristan in order to satisfy the US.

What does the silence over Russian atrocities inside Chechnya mean, along with mutilating their bodies by tying them to tanks while the so-called free world gives its blessings and even secretly supports the aggression ? This is a Zionist crusade.

What does the humiliation of Muslims in Somalia and killing 13,000 Muslims mean, along with torching Muslims' bodies? This is a Zionist-Crusaders war.

I will remind Muslims to fear God and to save their brothers in the African Horn from the famine that hit them.

What does the destruction of the infrastructure in Iraq mean and the tragedy that befell them mean? And the use of depleted uranium, besieging Iraq for years, causing the death of more than one million children which amazed all who had visited Iraq, including the Westerners themselves? It is a malicious crusade against Muslims.

What does the reoccupation of Iraq mean by using lies and deception along with murder, destruction, detention, torture and creation of huge military bases to dominate the whole region? It is a Zionist crusade against Muslims.

What about the continuous cultural domination through the setting up of radio stations and TV channels along with the Voice of America, London and others to continue the cultural domination of Muslims, combat our beliefs, change our values, encourage vice and even interfere with school curricula?

How can we explain France's stance on the headscarf and the banning on wearing it at schools, its relentless dealing with the Muslim community and its plan to establish a TV channel in Morocco to combat Islamic awareness there? This is a Zionist-Crusader war.

In conclusion, a war is under way to offend the messenger of Allah, his religion and his Umma (nation). The Muslim preparedness and their jihad should be on a par with these events. The duty of our Muslim nation over this Crusaders' campaign with its different aspects is to focus on supporting the prophet, his religion and the Umma to the best of our ability in all fields.

Despite the numerous Crusader attacks against our Muslim nation in military, economic, cultural and moral aspects, but the gravest of them all is the attack against our religion, our prophet and the our Sharia tenets. The epicentre of these wars is Baghdad, the seat of the khalifate rule. They keep reiterating that success in Baghdad will be success for the US, failure in Iraq the failure of the US.

Their defeat in Iraq will mean defeat in all their wars and a beginning to the receding of their Zionist-Crusader tide against us. Your mujahidin sons and brothers in Iraq have taught the US a hard lesson while in the fourth year of the Crusaders' invasion, they are steadfast and patient and keep killing and wounding enemy soldiers every day.

It is a duty for the Umma with all its categories, men, women and youths, to give away themselves, their money, experiences and all types of material support, enough to establish jihad in the fields of jihad particularly in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Sudan, Kashmir and Chechnya. Jihad today is an imperative for every Muslim. The Umma will commit sin if it did not provide adequate material support for jihad.

O fellow Muslims, pay no heed for the number of the enemy and their arsenal of arms because victory is a gift of God while the enemy, praise be to God, is experiencing a critical situation.

Unfortunately, while it continues to condemn the Western powers and calls for continuing jihad against them, it does not specifically follow up on the upcoming attack against America that is mentioned in his January tape of this year. As I said in my last post, I think that there will be a final third message this summer that will again offer a truce to the Western powers if they leave the Middle East completely. When that offer is ignored, the attack on the US will follow shortly thereafter.




There is a further development in the ongoing stalemate between the United Nations and Iran.

The UN has given Iran until this Friday, April 28th to cease all uranium enrichment activities or the matter will be referred to the UN's Security Council for further action. This, most likely, will be some sort of sanctions that will then cause Iran to respond by turning off its exportation of petroleum to the world. With those millions of barrels of oil suddenly removed from the market, expect yet another surge in oil prices and, most importantly, the price you pay per gallon a the pump. So far, it seems that Iran has absolutely no intention of backing down and is continuing at full speed toward their efforts to "industrialize" their enrichment of uranium.

Yesterday, I saw a report about how one of Iran's top Ayatollah's (these are the unelected group that tell President Amadinejad what to do!) gave an interview in which he stated that Iran is eager to begin exporting nuclear technology to the rest of the undeveloped world!

Well, with statements like that, it is obvious that that air campaign to take out the Iranian nuclear processing sites must now be considered an absolute necessity by our Pentagon and CIA. I would estimate that the chance of the attack, using nuclear munitions, this year is probably over 90%!


ken

[ken_behrendt]

Well, our President Bush has just released his plan to help bring down the currently high gasoline prices in the USA. It involves delaying making deposits to the nation's SPR or Strategic Petroleum Reserve for several months so that the supply of petroleum on the world markets will be increased and then, according to the principle of supply and demand, this tiny extra supply will bring down everybody's prices.

Of course, this is a totally futile gesture. Any surplus oil we add to the global supply will be almost immediately snatched up by the Chinese to fuel their ongoing explosive industrial expansion. No, I suspect (and fear) that the approximately $3 USD per gallon price for gasoline is now here to stay in the good ol' USA. What we have to concentrate on is keeping it from going any higher. IF and when that happens, it will begin to really affect our fragile economy in a significant way.



Meanwhile, yesterday over in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian-born insurgent leader, who is now Osama's number one man in that country released his own nice video taped message to the world. In case anybody forgot, this is the guy who released a video a couple of years ago in which he personally used a knife to decapitate an American captive. I saw selected images from that video and it is still giving me nightmares!

Anyway, he was showing off a new weapon that the terrorists will soon be deploying there. It is a rocket about 8 feet in length that can be launched from a crude tripodal launch stand and will deliver a powerful explosive warhead to a target several miles away.

With this device, it will be possible for the terrorists to begin bombing inside the "Green Zone" that was established inside of Baghdad from locations outside of the city. And, of course, this weapon can wreak havoc on any of the Iraqi oil facilities.

I'm predicting that the first time it is used to damage the oil storage or pumping facilities, that will increase the "tension factor" in the global oil markets and that, alone, could be enough to push the price of a barrel of oil to near the $80 USD mark.

No...we Americans will have to start getting used to a big increase in our expenses in the near future, because, ultimately, the price of fuel is included in everything we buy...



ken

[Dave]

Right on Ken
Thats why we need the Clem engine. Just think of what that would do to the stock market especially the oil companies and the price of oil. They couldn't give it away.

[Techstuf]

I personally don't think that trying to explain or make sense of current affairs by referring to a collection of two thousand odd year old documents is going to help

"Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."

I'll be sure and let the world's Archaeologists know that you weighed in on the subject and that their services are no longer needed.....as there's nothing relevant to be gained by it.

http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org ... ssing.html

Nope....nothing to see here.


TS


P.S. Thanks for the tip on typing etiquette. See? I'm now officially only half as annoying as before.

[Techstuf]

But, I'm almost as scared of the Christian jihadists!

It would be more accurate to say that you fear 'ignorant prejudicial hysteria'.....which, to a lesser extent, is what you are exhibiting.....

For I challenge you Ken, directly....to find a single advocation of terrorism in the brilliant teachings of Jesus Christ.

What have you to say of those atheist jihadists....political jihadists....judicial jihadists...and money grubbing corporate jihadists running amok at the helm of this country, nay, the world....?

Terrorism takes many forms, the most successful of them, by subtle trickery. It is clear that at least one form has reduced your reasoning skills to their present state of 'allegiance'.

"Teach a man to think that he's thinking, and he will love you. Make him really think, and he may hate you."

Christian jihadist? There is simply no such thing in light of reason. The two concepts are as anathema to one another as light and darkness....and if you had the courage to open a Bible....you'd know that your statement is made in ignorance.

If one were a 'jihadist' of some kind.....say of this kind:

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

One might find it productive to gain positions of authority or influence for as many of one's co-opted cohorts or fear inspired minions as possible in Christian organizations, so that what terrible deeds they might accomplish would be attributed to their simple followers.

Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is a foolish enterprise....

History is replete with examples of a good people being treated horrendously, for what their FALSE leaders do in THEIR name.
Since it appears you have not, or will not, learn this....I feel sorry for you, Ken. And would that God Himself, reveal to you the error of your ways.

The sad truth is....

In the false light of shallow blanket prejudice, founded upon the fragile foundation of semantics and fear, (all the rage these days)....

Anything goes.....Common Sense usually being the first casualty.



God bless,


TS

[digitaljez]

Techstuf, thank you for your consideration. It now only takes half the time it used to, to skip over your posts. Just joking. I enjoy your posts. I have seen how happy faith makes many people and find them to be the nicest of people. I am a little envious that I have never been blessed with my own 'road to Damascus' experience.
I find it odd that you try to equate the bible with archaeology and then point to an article that shows the story of the exodus can not be accurate.
Archaeology has shown that the bible can not be used as a true record of the worlds history. Or do you believe the earth is only 6000 years old and was created in seven days ?
You have taken what I said and interpreted it as a generalised statement that we cannot learn from the past. I feel that was a little devious of you. Could you not, instead, illustrate the relevance of the bible to the current world situation for the benefit of a 'lost soul' like me.
It is apparent to me that there are humans with different values. To kill is abhorrent to me but others are so conditioned to see it as duty or pleasure. It has to be that morality is a learned behaviour and the bible has influenced millions for the better. Even those of us not blessed with faith will have been formed by the ideology expressed in it.
Given that the current leaders of the world are already conditioned into their moral standpoints how is the bible going to help us resolve the differences between Christianity and Islam ?

[Vic Hays]

The Bible is very accurate as to its predictions if you don't twist them. As a result of Abraham's attempt to assist God by fathering a child, we still experience trouble.

Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

The admonition as to how to handle enemies is the same for them as any other enemey.

Mt 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mt 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mt 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

[ken_behrendt]

Techstuf wrote:

Christian jihadist? There is simply no such thing in light of reason. The two concepts are as anathema to one another as light and darkness....and if you had the courage to open a Bible....you'd know that your statement is made in ignorance.

By "Christian jihadist" I am referring to certain fundamentalist Christian groups that somehow feel it is their job to force world events to fulfill their particular version of the New Testament "end time" prophecies. They want to fund conservative Israeli politicians in the hope that the "Two State Solution" to the Arab/Israeli conflict will be abandoned and that the Israeli's will eventually expel all 2.4 million Palestinians from the territory that was once part of ancient Israel as part of the fulfilment of past failed Bible prophecies. Of course, these groups all believe that they are "true" Christians and have finally got the practice of Christianity right while everybody else is "walking in error" and probably doomed to eternal damnation after Jesus finally makes his long overdue Second Coming.

A couple of years ago, I remember seeing a news report about how the Israeli Intelligence service had stopped such a group of American fundamentalists who were visiting Israel. This group's members had a plan to seize control, at gunpoint, of the Dome of the Rock, a mosque on top of the old Temple foundation and then blow it up with dynamite! This mosque is considered the third most holy site in Islam and its destruction could have resulted in a conflict in which tens or even hundreds of thousands of innocent people were killed.

Apparently, the group thought that the Bible required them to start the Battle of Armageddon which was what Jesus was waiting for before he would make his triumphant Second Coming. In the process, they expected all of the Jewish population of Israel to be killed off with the exception of 144,000 jewish "saints' that would, during the battle, convert to Christianity.

In a world where we need to be easing tensions to reduce the loss of innocent life, the last thing we need is to have people trying to provoke religous wars.

Yes, I think that there is some wisdom in the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount. However, I think when people begin to get over involved in religion, there is the risk of much mayhem resulting. I do not think that the muslims have a monopoly on the concept of "jihad". It seems like all religions instinctively want to expand their membership and would, if possible, like their faith to eventually dominate the world. Unfortunately, some become so obsessed with such a goal that they can begin to justify the murder of anyone they consider to be an "outsider". Hopefully, this type of behavior will be eliminated from that Golden Age of Mankind that I think we will eventually achieve.

I should also mention that I have many Christian friends who are definitely not in any way like what I describe above. They are nice people who practice their particular beliefs and are not out to prosyletize or convert anybody or bring about end time prophecies. They are good people...



Dave...

Yes, the Clem engine sounds like it might be a feasible solution to our looming energy crisis. However, this engine was discussed for a while on this forum and then faded away. Apparently, no one knows for sure if the device was for real or how it actually worked and nothing has come of it.

I tend not to blame conspiracies for the disappearance of "miracle" devices from the market place, but, rather, that, in reality, they were not exactly as miraculous as they were "hyped up" to be in the first place.

Right now, it seems like the world is going to mainly respond to the energy crisis by switching to the production of ethanol and also "going nuclear". To my mind, these are, at best, just short term bandaids for a serious problem. We need a workable solar technology that can reliably power our homes, automobiles, and industry. Will it ever happen? I think so, but it will require some big breakthroughs in the conversion of our Sun's energy into electrical energy. Maybe in a few decades we'll finally have it...



ken

[ken_behrendt]

Well, today is April 28th and, according to my calculations, Iran now has about 6 hours or so to inform the United Nations that they will be ceasing all enrichment of uranium for their "peaceful" nuclear power program. I suspect that the deadline will come and go without a response from them. Saddam also played this game with the UN which takes a dim view of such lack of cooperation.

I expect this matter to be referred to the Security Council shortly and, if the Russians and Chinese will at least abstain, another resolution will be passed giving Iran yet another time limit to cease enrichment activities before the articles in the UN's charter are invoked which will give the US and, presumerably, another "coalition of the willing" authorization to use whatever means necessary to shut down the Iranian program. We all, of course, know what that means!



Meanwhile, I just saw an interesting news "blurb" about how the US military will be testing some sort of nuclear bunker buster over in New Mexico this June. I guess they want to convince themselves that these devices are effective and safe to use in a crowded urban area. That test's results should be interesting, to say the least.

So far, everything seems to be shaping up for an air campaign against Iranian nuclear facilities during this summer or early fall. When it occurs, expect to see a quantum leap in the prices we'll be paying for gasoline and other related forms of fuel.



I notice now that the US Congress has finally "gotten it" with respect to how annoyed Americans are with the recently elevated fuel prices, politicians are staging a lot of "photo opt's" at gas stations to show the public that they are on top of the problem. This mostly consists, however, of each political party blaming the other for the mess we're in and offering all kinds of quick fixes to bring the prices down.

The one that sounds the best to me, so far, was for every taxpayer in the USA to be sent a check by the Treasury for $100 USD to offset the rising energy prices. Only, I'd make one change...in order to be effective, they should make that a check for about $1000 USD! Hmmm...let's see. That means the US governement will then have to sell China Treasury notes for a mere $100 billion USD (100,000,000 taxpayers times $1000 USD). Not too bad...about the cost of an initial military incursion into a Third World country...


ken