mhh I partially understand what Oxygon is saying. This aproach is very interesting and maybe Oxygon is right. I think this (maybe I am in error):
Imagine to add a weight to the exact center of the conduit. This weight has the purpose to provide sufficient force to "compress" water, therefore water goes to the superior container. This new central weight is added to the whole weight of the system (two vessels and the conduit). The unsettling of a weight near the center of the wheel is not so strong as the unsettling of a weight (in this case water) near the circumference of the wheel.... if the weight is the same (weight of moving water compared to the added central weight).
Oxygon, is this what you mean ?
Edit: mhh however the COG of the system cannot climb up his origin point. Excused I do not clearly see this system, is difficoult to understand but I have the sensation that we are talking about something really important and that maybe also Bessler has exploited.
Paul
Oxygons Earth Day PMM
Moderator: scott
re: Oxygons Earth Day PMM
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re: Oxygons Earth Day PMM
I do see that what Oxygon is saying, is the ability of the bellows to allow free movement of the force of water.
Oxygon how do you relate the image below to what you are doing?
In a water level used in construction, the water always settles equal after it stops moving back and forth.
Oxygon how do you relate the image below to what you are doing?
In a water level used in construction, the water always settles equal after it stops moving back and forth.
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JB Wheeler
it exists I think I found it.
it exists I think I found it.
re: Oxygons Earth Day PMM
In the drawing below there are two containers. Is the pressure necessary to fill them the same or not ?
Paul
Paul
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re: Oxygons Earth Day PMM
Paul
Wow that is a tricky one.
In A. the pipe ends at the bottom of the inlet, however you have the pressure of the water in the holding tank forcing down on the incoming water.
In B. you are lifting the water higher, and also have resistance at the elbow.
However the force of the water going down will aid the pump.
What is the answer?
Wow that is a tricky one.
In A. the pipe ends at the bottom of the inlet, however you have the pressure of the water in the holding tank forcing down on the incoming water.
In B. you are lifting the water higher, and also have resistance at the elbow.
However the force of the water going down will aid the pump.
What is the answer?
JB Wheeler
it exists I think I found it.
it exists I think I found it.
re: Oxygons Earth Day PMM
eheh, I don't know. I ask if someone else know :)
re: Oxygons Earth Day PMM
Oh
Well B. is definitely pumping to a higher location.
So I would say B. pump must be stronger.
Well B. is definitely pumping to a higher location.
So I would say B. pump must be stronger.
JB Wheeler
it exists I think I found it.
it exists I think I found it.
re: Oxygons Earth Day PMM
If the higher pipe ended at (or just below) the top of the vessels (rather than using the elbow) then both pipes will have the same pressure at the bottom pump.
Elbows and turns cause resistance to flow and the elbow seems to empty out slightly above the water level so the pump on the right will require a slightly higher pressure.
Elbows and turns cause resistance to flow and the elbow seems to empty out slightly above the water level so the pump on the right will require a slightly higher pressure.
re: Oxygons Earth Day PMM
Thanks...
Now...ignoring the elbow and assuming A and B tub have same capacity, imagine the tub and the pipes empty. We start now pumping water in the pipes. To arrive to the beginning of the tub water needs the same pressure (A and B). But from now we have a difference: the B pressure must increase to pump water to the highest point. The pressure of A must gradually increases ... the pressure follows the height of water of the "A" tub.
With the same water flow and in the same time interval we will have a different pressure curve.... Is this correct ?
Paul
Now...ignoring the elbow and assuming A and B tub have same capacity, imagine the tub and the pipes empty. We start now pumping water in the pipes. To arrive to the beginning of the tub water needs the same pressure (A and B). But from now we have a difference: the B pressure must increase to pump water to the highest point. The pressure of A must gradually increases ... the pressure follows the height of water of the "A" tub.
With the same water flow and in the same time interval we will have a different pressure curve.... Is this correct ?
Paul
Last edited by Paul on Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ken_behrendt
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re: Oxygons Earth Day PMM
Oxy...
I still do not think your OxyVessel is workable and that the equilibrium orientation I posted earlier for it is accurate. To force water from the bottom bellows up to the top one requires that the connecting tube be heavier than the water in the tube and in the top bellows and that means that the CG of the system of water and connecting tube will always drop as water if water was actually pumped up to the top bellows. The net result of all those dropped CG's for each water / connecting tube section will just put the composite CG of all four sections below the axle or at the punctum quietus as Bessler might have referred to the location. If the connecting tube is not heavier than the water in the bottom bellows and any in the tube, then, as Jim pointed out, the connecting tube would just float on the water in the bottom bellows.
Your design is so simple that it has probably been tried many times by the pursuers of hydraulic perpetual motion machines. Surely, if it was workable, then we would be using it now...
ken
I still do not think your OxyVessel is workable and that the equilibrium orientation I posted earlier for it is accurate. To force water from the bottom bellows up to the top one requires that the connecting tube be heavier than the water in the tube and in the top bellows and that means that the CG of the system of water and connecting tube will always drop as water if water was actually pumped up to the top bellows. The net result of all those dropped CG's for each water / connecting tube section will just put the composite CG of all four sections below the axle or at the punctum quietus as Bessler might have referred to the location. If the connecting tube is not heavier than the water in the bottom bellows and any in the tube, then, as Jim pointed out, the connecting tube would just float on the water in the bottom bellows.
Your design is so simple that it has probably been tried many times by the pursuers of hydraulic perpetual motion machines. Surely, if it was workable, then we would be using it now...
ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: Oxygons Earth Day PMM
Maybe the only way to find out is by locating all your funnels, condoms, ducktape and the wheel of the previously failed design.
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
re: Oxygons Earth Day PMM
you guys are funny...
good guys, but funny...
yes i thought of adding a central reservoir or weight to the center of the main body or conduit... to aid the main body...
if the conduit is wide enough to allow free flow then the main body should fall... unto the lower bellow...
to aid this even more add the "Central Pin" I talked about on my website.....
...?
Oh, and condoms and duct tape don't go together... ;P
good guys, but funny...
yes i thought of adding a central reservoir or weight to the center of the main body or conduit... to aid the main body...
if the conduit is wide enough to allow free flow then the main body should fall... unto the lower bellow...
to aid this even more add the "Central Pin" I talked about on my website.....
...?
Oh, and condoms and duct tape don't go together... ;P
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"A man with a new idea is a crank until he succeeds."~ M. Twain.
re: Oxygons Earth Day PMM
Yeah Well you wouldn't laugh if you were around when cat gut was the only
condom material. We had to roll our own. Tough and they had to dry for days before you could use em!
condom material. We had to roll our own. Tough and they had to dry for days before you could use em!
JB Wheeler
it exists I think I found it.
it exists I think I found it.
re: Oxygons Earth Day PMM
And that stuff was not waterproof.
horrible, horrible days...
But didn't I mention glue? I think you can use glue to attache a condom to the funnel... plus ducktape, to be safe.
horrible, horrible days...
But didn't I mention glue? I think you can use glue to attache a condom to the funnel... plus ducktape, to be safe.
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
re: Oxygons Earth Day PMM
You might get some wierd looks from the cashier at the store...
Cashier: Hello Sir, did you find everything ok...?
Customer: Yes, thank you...
Customer Places Down a roll of duct tape, a box of condoms (extra large) and a Funnel, etc......
Cashier: ???
Customer feels embarassed and runs away...
Cashier calls the police...
"A man with a new idea is a crank until he succeeds."~ M. Twain.
re: Oxygons Earth Day PMM
This design is very similar to http://www.eagle-research.com/fenergy/gravity.html except one uses fixed tubes and the other uses flexitubes. I have been pondering the flexitube design for years and I have run some rudimentary tests. Although I have no working model, I feel I can say 100% that these designs will work as long as they are balanced properly, but I'm starting to question how practical they are.
It comes down to how much torque do you want your wheel to have. Greater torque = more water = larger and heavier weights to move (or pump) the water up. You could easily use helium or hydrogen in place of the water and convert the machine into a buoyancy wheel, however, this would generate much less torque, but it would be much easier to move (pump) gas than it would be to move (pump) water. And with less torque a properly balanced wheel is even more important. Submerge a buoyancy wheel in water and suddenly you have lots of torque which again requires larger heavier weights.
I like the fixed tube design because there is no need for tube management.
I really wish someone would just make a proof of concept model of one of these things.
It comes down to how much torque do you want your wheel to have. Greater torque = more water = larger and heavier weights to move (or pump) the water up. You could easily use helium or hydrogen in place of the water and convert the machine into a buoyancy wheel, however, this would generate much less torque, but it would be much easier to move (pump) gas than it would be to move (pump) water. And with less torque a properly balanced wheel is even more important. Submerge a buoyancy wheel in water and suddenly you have lots of torque which again requires larger heavier weights.
I like the fixed tube design because there is no need for tube management.
I really wish someone would just make a proof of concept model of one of these things.