Oxygons Inertial Engine...

[rlortie]

I must agree with John C. gravity is not a closed system unless you consider the universe a closed system. Gravity is a constant source of energy that we all utilize daily in one way or the other.

I have found that gravity can be used to over come CF and create CP on half of a wheel while adding force and CF on the desired side of said wheel.

Do you remember the man who said 'give me a lever long enough and a place to stand, I will lift the world. I believe Bessler remembered him.

I have stated a number of times to this forum, it would be ironic if John had been sitting on the answer all this time with his Avatar. John was the only member to reply to this statement. Well I have said it again!

The Yin yang symbol represents more than he she, good and bad, night and day. One cannot appreciate one with out the other. but there is always a little of each in the opposite. Gravity is no different, It can be appreciated and used on the upside as well as the down side.

Ralph

[Fletcher]

John can answer for himself Ralph .. but .. I remember that it was _no accident_ that JC chose that particular avatar, so no irony there.

At the time that avatar's became available on this discussion board he said that he was certain that Bessler incorporated the curved ' S ' shape somehow into his wheel mechs.

He used the analogy of the petrol station rotating sign that stands upright in the forecourt as an example & of course the salvanious (sp) wind mill.

Do you remember the man who said 'give me a lever long enough and a place to stand, I will lift the world.

Can't quite remember who, but I think perhaps Pythagoras, but certainly one of the well known Mediterranean fellows ?

I look forward to the day that someone can satisfactorily demonstrate to me how gravity can be an all pervading conservative force, yet in certain circumstances it can be annulled to allow work to be done in a mechanical system ? In the mean time I keep thinking & looking under stones :)

[John Collins]

Hi Ralph, I used the yin-yang symbol as Fletcher says, because it is similar to the Savonius windmill and other wind-catching designs.

I was sent a design some years ago done - a drawing done apparently by Nikola Tesla, which according to the sender, accompanied some notes which said that this design or pattern formed the basis of all energies. The pattern looked just like the yin-yang symbol except that there were two curved lines at right angles to each other, instead of the one. I cannot vouch for its authenticity and I have never been able to find any reference to it, but those of you who have read my book "PM;An Ancient Mystery Solved?" will know of my research into that design with reference to Bessler's wheel.

John Collins

[ovyyus]

Gravity is a constant source of energy that we all utilize daily in one way or the other.

Ralph, can you give an example of G as an energy source? When a spring is compressed it is not usually referred to as an energy source - rather the spring has stored energy put there by the effort of something else. Just one example of G as an energy source?

[rlortie]

Ovyyus.

The first simple example of gravity as an energy source working against and canceling CF is this fact. The earth is rotating every 24 hours and it is as I recall about 25,000 miles in diameter, thus giving us a velocity of 1,041.6 miles per hour. (please consider these figures as ane example only).

Gravity keeps CF with such speed from letting us and everything not tied down from being thrown off the planet. Tie a string to a weight and start twirling it while letting out more string. The string breaks and the weight goes flying off in a straight line. Gravity is a force holding us in place and the string does not break.

Gravity in a wheel can be used to cancel CF in a wheel on the ascending side providing the angle of attack for amount of mass and velocity equals the force of gravity= CP.. While on the other side gravity and CF are combining forces to work for you at a higher angle of attack.

Ralph

[ME]

What exactly do you (all) mean with CounterForce?

In my understanding, a counterforce is just the force of gravity. Only in the direction you don't want it to go, that is: the opposite direction of the turning of the wheel. And this counterforce is in the same direction of gravity: down.
One other possibility is that there is a counterforce because of inertia of mass, or a reaction of a spring.

[ken_behrendt]

I think that there is a "language problem" that may be causing some of our membership to think that it is gravity that actually does work. For example, even in elementary physics courses, one reads the definition of work as being what happens when a force, such as gravity, moves an mass. This type of description automatically prejudices one into thinking that it is forces themselves that add kinetic energy to objects.

However, the thinking caused by this is no longer appropriate in the light of 20th century relativity theory. Now, it is more appropriate to say that an object gains kinetic energy as it moves (or falls) through a positive field gradient because the object's subatomic particles lose a tiny portion of their rest masses that is then converted into energy which is added to the kinetic energy of the object. Thus, the field (gravity) only serves as a means to facilitate a process that is going on inside of the object itself. A field, in and of itself, has no energy that it can contribute to objects...only objects have energy which is stored in them as mass and which can be used to increase their overall kinetic energy.

I know these concepts are hard to get used to and, for practical purposes, are not really that relevant to the pursuit of a working gravity wheel. But, they will someday, I am confident, be very important to rationalizing how such a wheel can operate once we manage to build one.



Ralph...

I am convinced that CF was just as much a headache for Bessler as it is for us today. I am not convinced that he used or "harnessed" this force for the actual motion of his wheels, but, rather, that its presence was what would eventually cause his wheels to reach a terminal rotation rate.

Any benefit one might gain from CF is, unfortunately, lost due to the extra effort that must be expended to restore a wheel's weights to their starting positions against the outward pull of CF. There are ways to minimize its affects (like interconnecting opposed weight mechanisms, etc), but these tend to lead to overly complicated designs. Bessler has warned against such over complication and seems to always be telling the would-be mobilist to keep things simple.


ken

[rlortie]

Fletcher,

John can answer for himself Ralph .. but .. I remember that it was _no accident_ that JC chose that particular avatar, so no irony there

True JC can speak for himself and he usually does a fine job of it. I agree that his choice of the Avatar is not the irony, it was a good choice for what we all are chasing. I would have chose it myself, had he not already latched on to it.

The irony I speak of is not that he chose it, but rather no one including himself to my knowledge understands or sees the potential in it. If they do then they are not admitting it.

An old now deceased close friend of mine, was an engineer. During WW II
he was a one star General, involved in the construction of the
'Burma Road'. He become very interested in the hinduism culture and religion.

After the war he was assigned to a construction battalion in Germany and was appointed as an aid to Eisenhower. After his tour in the army, he returned to India and attended college there for three years.

He and I would set for hours while he explained the powers held by the older Monks. Although the yin-yang symbol is said to be of Chinese origin, in one form or another it can be found in almost any ancient civilization. To him the symbol held great respect and he would often refer to it. And yes he built a small [salvanious (sp) wind mill.] many years before they become a popular item.

By the way the Hindu monks of that time referred to it as Ying-Yang rather than Yin-Yang.

Note the two small opposing circles in each half. You cannot have one without the other including a small portion of the opposite, a blend of harmony. A depiction of showing that the opposing can work together to balance or cancel a portion of each other.

Ralph

[ken_behrendt]

Ralph...

That Ying-Yang symbol was popular during the '60's, especially with the New Age movement.

I think at the time that it was promoted as being a symbol for the eternal nature of the universe, for the balance between and eternal struggle between good and evil, and for the interaction of the femine and masculine forces of the universe.

When I look at the symbol, it always suggests some sort of continuous flow process to me. Kind of like the flow of matter/energy from places of excess in the cosmos to places of deficiency so as to maintain a balance of some sort.

I think John's Avatar would look cooler if he could animate it and make it slowly rotate CW so as to suggest this non-ending flow of matter and energy...


ken

[rlortie]

Ken,

am convinced that CF was just as much a headache for Bessler as it is for us today. I am not convinced that he used or "harnessed" this force for the actual motion of his wheels, but, rather, that its presence was what would eventually cause his wheels to reach a terminal rotation rate.

I am convinced that Bessler did indeed harness CF and learned to use it to his advantage. I know that I have, so why could Bessler have used the same advantage. I believe that a gravity applied domino falling effect would not have limited his terminal rotation. he did so to keep his wood and canvas covered wheels from flying apart.

Any benefit one might gain from CF is, unfortunately, lost due to the extra effort that must be expended to restore a wheel's weights to their starting positions against the outward pull of CF. There are ways to minimize its affects (like interconnecting opposed weight mechanisms, etc), but these tend to lead to overly complicated designs. Bessler has warned against such over complication and seems to always be telling the would-be mobilist to keep things simple.

CF is a gain and can fortunately be retained and not lost. There is a little loss expended during restoration, but gravity in its assistance makes in minimal.

Interconnecting opposed weights (pairs) are not over complicated. Even a carpenters boy whos child is sitting on a teeter-totter can do it. How simpler can it be.

Ken I believe that a good portion of your problem in designing a wheel, is that you focus on the down side to much. You need to look at the other half and put the yin and yang together.

"Me" I never use the term "opposing force" In my life their is no such critter that can not be trained to assist or walk around.

Ralph

[John Collins]

I understand gravity as well as the next man Ken. I used the word 'field' because some people do. I am undecided as to what exactly it is. But I can understand it in many ways by using analogies.

John Collins

[rlortie]

Analogies it is. Gravity is present, it is here to stay. Whether you call it energy or a force should be irrelevant. It will move a mass downward in a given time, to me that qualifies as the definition of "work".

Why make a point of what to call or define it, that is not going to change its function. Learn to live with it and use it to your benefit. Consider my above reply to ovyyus, use the circumference of the earth, as the angle of attack that keeps CF from throwing us all into space. now apply that to your wheel design. It is no different.

Ralph

[rlortie]

Ken,

When I look at the symbol, it always suggests some sort of continuous flow process to me. Kind of like the flow of matter/energy from places of excess in the cosmos to places of deficiency so as to maintain a balance of some sort.

It is the symble of continuous balalance of every thing you can think of.
You may apply it to him-her, night day up-down, gravity-CF, CF-CP, ETC.

I think John's Avatar would look cooler if he could animate it and make it slowly rotate CW so as to suggest this non-ending flow of matter and energy...

There is no need for the discerning to bother with animating it. All you have to do is look at it side ways or shift it 90 degrees. Ask your self now where are the two little altanate colored circles and how can I apply them.

The following attachment is related to my Nautilus design and was provided by Denis. He is one who understands the relationship with the symbol.

Ralph

[ME]

Ralph, this image explaines the counterforce?

[rlortie]

Me,

Well I am glad to hear that some one besides Denis and I see something here.

The nautilis is one of the oldest deep sea creatures known to man. They have been around for millions of years, while other species have come and gone.

As they grow there Center of gravity is always changing to match the mass. new cells are added to the shell as the animal grows, always keeping the same proportion or ratio.

In times past I have often mentioned the Golden mean, thought of as an architectural ratio,but it holds more meaning than that.

Ralph