Pair of Pairs

[Paul]

Hi,

ok John, good luck with your design :-).

Gentlemen, maybe the Oxygon's water wheel is really the solution. I am convincing myself that that could indeed be the right path. What do you think ? and if the parallelogram (toy page) was the optimum way to compress the water bag ?

Edit:
Bessler says that increasing the diameter is necessary to increase the power of the wheel. If one uses water as weigh, the only solution to increase the power is to increase the total water volume and therefore increase the bigness of the wheel.

Paul

[ken_behrendt]

Paul...

It's easy to get discouraged in one's pursuit of a working gravity wheel and then begin to think that maybe Bessler really did fake his demonstrations. Or, perhaps, that his wheels were really powered by some novel, but not perpetual, source of energy.

However, I tend to agree with John's view. There were just too many examinations of Bessler's wheels made by skeptics who were going out of their way to find fault with the inventions. Each of his wheels that was examined passed such examinations. Also, there is the matter of Count Karl's endorsement of the inventions. Karl had a sterling credibility reputation with the royalty of Europe and I seriously doubt if he would risk it by presenting Bessler inventions as being genuine if they were not. Of course, I suppose that there is the slight possibility that even the count was fooled by Bessler, but I would consider that improbable.


John...

You mention Bessler's "connectivity" principle and that reference is one of the reasons why I am currently exploring designs that use "control lines" between diametrically opposed weight shifting mechanisms. Maybe the concept of "connectivity" coupled with the simultaneous weight shifting of the "toy page" devices are a major clue that will, at least, point us all in the correct direction to search.


ken

[bluesgtr44]

Hi John! This is close to what I have been trying to point out in the "Steve's Street" thread

Surprise-generating mechanisms > Connectivity
What makes a system a system, and not simply a collection of elements, are the connections and interactions between its components, as well as the effect that these linkages have on its behaviour.

This comes from the Britannica sight....

The components are independent, yet when put together in a a particular way (connectivity/interconnectedness)....it becomes a system...uhhh, finished that book yet?!?


Steve

[Fletcher]

I have proof that Bessler left constructive information about the way his wheels were built. I know that you are certain that Bessler's wheel could not have depended on gravity but I remain certain that they did. I also have some idea of the principle behind his machine and it is definitely not one I had thought of before. I cannot claim authorship of this idea since I got it from Bessler, but to me it seems entirely possible that no one has thought of this feature in 300 years.

There is also a particular requirement which I am aware of which makes success unlikely without its inclusion in the design. That is why Bessler kept repeating that no one had succeeded before because no one had been so determined to succeed. By this I believe that he meant that he tried every single design and made no assumptions. I will post more information on this as soon as I have finished my latest design and build and can see if I am right.

A final comment - the word 'connectivity' that Bessler uses in MT has several allied meanings and it might help to look in a synonym dictionary for other similar meanings.

John Collins

Hi John .. I take it from your comments that you have reached a point in your research where your previous suspicions (theory) of his likely construction have now firmed up & have been upgraded to the category of 'substantiated proof' ?

If 'mind miles' as well as 'smarts' are a prerequisite to solve this riddle then you would be a fitting benefactor imo. Do I have to wait for the book :) ?

[John Collins]

I'm 95 per cent certain that I have the complete design but....... we've all been there before haven't we?

I'm building it and it looks simple but there are still complexities to the actual design which would not have been apparent to Karl who would understand the basic concept but not appreciate how each of the parts have to be placed precisely to achieve the desired effect.

No you won't have to wait for the book Fletch and thanks to you too, for the kind words.

John Collins

[Wheeler]

Well John
It look like the race is narrowing.
I'm right behind you with about 75%.
I hope I win, but it I see you are up front a bit!

[John Collins]

95% or 75%? It's just a figure plucked out of the air Wheeler - and I could just as well have written 70%. I guess it's anybody's race.

John C.

[Wheeler]

Yes I understand.
I used the same math to calculate my progress.
Although I am not sure of my Bessler design yet,
I do have a design of my own that is now using gravity to move.
It uses weight to go forward.
I also wish you the best for your endless efforts
It would seem like you should be the first or at least the leader in
finding the gravity design that Bessler used.

This is not to put pressure on you, just simple hope for all mankind.

[ken_behrendt]

John...

You've got 95% of Bessler's secret design?! Wow! You've just pulled ahead of me with my 90% of the solution!

Anyway, I found it interesting that you say that Count Karl, even though he viewed the mechanism, did not fully understant it. Could this be possible? Would Karl have promoted the device if he (Karl) did not fully understand it?

I know that, if I had paid Bessler 4000 thalers to be let in on the secret so that I could then recommend it to my nobile associates, I would not be content with just partially understanding it because it might be possible that the part I did not understand would contain some trickery. I would only be content if I thoroughly understood it and could, if I had the inventor's permission, actually replicate the device myself.

Well, I'm sure that we all here will be very interested to learn what you have discovered. Even if (hopefully not) it does not work, perhaps its revelation can serve to help others on their way toward a solution...



ken

[John Collins]

You misunderstand me Ken, I meant that he understood the principle but still might not have appreciated what was involved in finding the solution. I think that when the design is known everyone will be amazed and perhaps a little disappointed that they did not think of it.

If what I think I know is right there are aspects of the design which are not immediately obvious to the eye. I said earlier that I think the range of movement is very small (short), if you think about why this might be so you might conclude that it was because as Bessler said, the wheel hardly moved when he used a small number of 'cross-bars'. Further consideration might lead you to realise that the range of movement was effective over a very short range and therefore, to move the wheel, more of the mechanisms were needed, however space might prevent too many more of them?

If space is a limiting principle then the mechanisms although only effective over a short range, must have been relatively large compared to the wheel.

John Collins

[Wheeler]

With todays technology we can make it better, I hope.

[ken_behrendt]

John wrote:

If space is a limiting principle then the mechanisms although only effective over a short range, must have been relatively large compared to the wheel.

I've reached the conclusion that most of the interior of Bessler's drums would have been empty space which, at most, was occupied by structural members required to maintain the drum's rigidity. That is, I now suspect that not only were the weight mounted levers short, but they were, more or less, compactly arranged only near the drum's rim.


ken

[quercus virginiana]

I'm 95 per cent certain that I have the complete design but....... we've all been there before haven't we?

I'm building it and it looks simple but there are still complexities to the actual design which would not have been apparent to Karl who would understand the basic concept but not appreciate how each of the parts have to be placed precisely to achieve the desired effect.

No you won't have to wait for the book Fletch and thanks to you too, for the kind words.

John Collins

John Collins,
When will MT with all Bessler's comments be available for purchase? Seems like "soon" has taken a different meaning?

Good luck with your design. Hope you or somebody gets it so we can all finally see how near or far we got to it!!!!!!!!!!!!

quercus

[ovyyus]

John Collins,
When will MT with all Bessler's comments be available for purchase? Seems like "soon" has taken a different meaning?

Soon is never soon enough for us too :) John is presently on holidays for a couple of weeks and has asked me to cover for him in his absence... We're busy working on finalising the MT publication - everything seems to take longer than expected. Hang in there, it won't be too long now and hopefully you'll agree that it was worth the wait.

[quercus virginiana]

Well, I guess John Collin's design didn't work...or we would have heard something from somebody by now.

I don't buy, "out of internet contact". Sorry.

One crossbar and a couple of pulleys shoulda done it.


Oak