Falling Linearly

[LustInBlack]

Alright, as discussed in another thread that I hijacked a bit, here is an idea that sparked between members in that previous thread..


We thought about a system where the scissor Jack arms would be used as an accumulator for a falling weight ..


Hard to describe, but the picture describes it well ..


I used my commonly called "immersion wheel" idea .. .
Where you can use the falling momentum of a weight and tap the energy of the fall when it hits an arm, which in turn would push a wheel linked at taller ratio to the driving wheel; again, hard to understand as is, but if you follow some of my posts, you will understand .. [Picture attached].

This new idea, is an extension that replace the Taller Ratio arm with a linear movement created by the falling weight, which in turn, will pull on the weights on the left side of the wheel to shift them, nearer to the center, which will create a permanently shifted CoG for that wheel . .

By the way, there is no counter-torque created if the weight would resist to be shifted to the center, since the falling weight, would be pushed up, but wouldn't resist to wheel movement because it wouldn't hit it's stop .

Anyways ..

[Wheeler]

LustInBlack
can you expane?

[LustInBlack]

Wheeler :

Ok, the Immersion Wheel, is my previous prototype, which changed quite a bit actually, but anyways ..

There are 36 arms that are linked to each 2 wheels .
There are weights, which are free to fall on only one side of each wheel, that is the heart of the principle .
Those weights hits the 36 arms when falling, which causes the 2 wheels to rotate with a greater ratio..

If you simulate it, you'll quickly find the problem, the synchronization of the arms/weight isn't right, they will lock up because of the speed difference between the falling weights and the rotation of the wheels.

In principle, the weights will fall at a specific speed, and during acceleration the wheels don't turn at that speed, that difference resolves in a greater force being generated, when the maximum speed is reached (let's say 25 RPM, if it was the same wheel as Bessler, which I doubt) well, at that speed, the weight will not fall, they will stay connected to their stop ..

But the wheels will slow down and the process will repeat, thus making the wheels stable at the max RPM, oscillating between MAX RPM and a bit less RPM .

As said, it doesn't work, the arms lock the wheels ..

I tried to find a solution, I have some ideas for this.. But recent research made me think about other concepts using the same idea (Falling weights on the right side of the wheel)

When I talk about Falling weight, everybody think I mean the weights connected to the descending side of the wheel .. NOT ..

The weights disconnects from the wheel and are free falling ..

They must not fall for too long, because of counter-torque ..

The idea is to keep a positive ratio of counter-torque and absolute torque.

And, if my current idea works, well, there is no problem there, if we can push the weights on ascending side very near the center ..

What has been tried in the past, was to guide the weights to the center, but energy was taken from the wheel instead of the weights, to do that.

Bessler said it was simple .. It seems stupid enough to work, just move the weights on the ascending side near the center using the free falling weight momentum ..


I am currently building a physical model of this, some secrets are not shared yet, but will be if it's working..

[ken_behrendt]

LIB wrote:

If you simulate it, you'll quickly find the problem, the synchronization of the arms/weight isn't right, they will lock up because of the speed difference between the falling weights and the rotation of the wheels.

Maybe the synchronization problem could be solved if the two wheels were connected by an appropriate gear train. The fall of the weights might be regulated by having them attached to springs so that they descend more slowly before striking the opposed wheel's extension pieces.

Just a thought...


ken

[LustInBlack]

Ken :

I've found that I can synchronize the arms with the weights as is, when the arm hit at about 2 o'clock, but the hit on the arm isn't as strong as when the weight hit at 3 o'clock ..

My other solution is exactly like Part C in MT135 ..
But I haven't simulated or built it ..
Simulation is just too slow ..

I tried the gear train, which is a good idea, because it removes the need of a symetrical system; by coincidence, MT55 is almost the same thing as my idea when using a gear train.

Physical construction is on the way, I don't have definite answer to discard those models right now ..


By the way, it would be great to have a Public Maschinen Tractate to see what has been tried by who, and what were their result, and a place for us to put some comments.. !

[LustInBlack]

Wheeler :

You talked about friction before, all the bearings of the scissor Arm ..

I don't think it will be a problem after all ..
The thing is, we have scissor arms around the wheel, each side is symetrical ..
When the weight falls, the scissor arm just have to move a little to shift the opposite weight ..

My tests seem positive ..

[Wheeler]

I see what your are saying.

The resistance of each pivot may not all combine at the same time.

Seems likely that the motion required will only need to move slight amount of distance, and not the whole distance of a compound scissor.

This may be possible because the arrangement is circular actions taking place on small amounts rather than large forces.

It seems that the use of this compound action may be close to natural motion like wave movement.
Water waves and sound waves travel in series, so scissor action may hold some of the same physics.

This as you know has been talked about in several posts.
I think Jonathan once had some good math on scissor actions.
He also posted some ideas.
You may be able to find his posts about it.

[ken_behrendt]

LIB...

I think John mentioned last year that he had tried some design which utilized a scissor jack type mechanism, but he could not get it to work.

Below is something I came up with, but I did not try modeling it because of the complexity of the design. In any event, I remain unconvinced that Bessler used scissor jacks within his wheels because such designs seem to me to be too complex to be described with the word "simple.


ken

[LustInBlack]

Ken : I partially Agree ..

I agree that it was maybe something else than scissor arm, but I think there was a Linear movement somewhere ..

I'll find out, not everything has been tried out and I'm on two good tracks right now . . .

;]

[LustInBlack]

I see what your are saying.

It seems that the use of this compound action may be close to natural motion like wave movement.
Water waves and sound waves travel in series, so scissor action may hold some of the same physics.

This as you know has been talked about in several posts.
I think Jonathan once had some good math on scissor actions.
He also posted some ideas.
You may be able to find his posts about it.

Interesting analogy .. I like it ! ..

I'm not following all the posts on this forum, there are too many, and a picture is worth thousands of words. . I believe it could be a very good idea to create a public Maschinen Tractate or the like ..

Like another forum that is just that, All threads would be to describe 1 idea that someone tried .. With pictures and description . . .

That would be very interesting and probably guide each other in directions we didn't think of . .

Anyways, your wave analogy make me think about something .. It's just another idea in the air, but let's say you have 3 sections of a circle, each section in an arrangement of scissor arm, not a scissor arm, more of a Scissor Grid..

This grid would shrink to a small size when triggered or grow to a larger size ..

Probably not turning, but interesting nonetheless..
I like new concepts, they provide another dimension of possibilities ! ..


By the way, what are you on Wheeler !? ..

[Wheeler]

Lib
A simple topic on the subjects would be very good idea.
I think it would be helpful.

There are thousands of ideas not explored. not tested, not thought of yet.
They will continue to come as we seek them.

LIB wrote;

By the way, what are you on Wheeler !?

What do you mean? Am I making mistakes with my spell check again?

If this is a question, of why do I enjoy the ideas, it is simply fun, and I also have made progress in my experiments, so this gives me energy.

I love this stuff.

[LustInBlack]

Wheeler : hehe, ok I forgot a word: I meant what are you working on Wheeler ! .. Not what drug are you on hehehe ..

;]

[Wheeler]

LIB
If you go back you can still edit your question on that post.

I am working on what makes stones or rocks fall after you throw them.
The theory of balls on latex sheet, was not anything but hype.
People did not even know what it was, but they supported it as if it was something.

We let this be ok.
It is now time to go back and actually find what gravity is.
No one finished the project.
This is what I am doing.
PS Is your name actually Lustinblack? Is it a common name?

[LustInBlack]

I'm not sure exactly of what you are doing, but it's alright..

My name is Frederic .

LustInBlack is just a nickname ..
"Convoitise en Noir"

[Wheeler]

Fred
Will you go back and change the question to what you were trying to ask me ?