Symmetrically Balanced Systems – are they able to develop useable torque ?

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Fletcher,
try parasitic oscillation, not parametric oscillation. I described it a long time ago.
The cylindrical weights can roll, and therby shift the center of gravity.

Roll a cylinder over a dowel, ist is not only rolling sideways, is is in addition lifted against gravity. This make an unbalance in the wheel.

Lifting a rotating cylinder is heavier than a standstill cylinder.

The wheel gets OU during ist own swinging inside. Tip: create a swinging, pulsating system in the wheel.

With "Walker" and "segmented cylinder" version, you have examples for such swingings.

The future has begun

Georg

[ken_behrendt]

Fletcher...

YOU are right...I goofed up. The CG of the metal rim on the elastic band wheel will shift to the left of the "axle" when the right ascending side bands are heated.

As far as finding that magic "black box" automatic weight shifting mechanism Bessler used is concerned, all we can do is "keep the faith" that it's real, simple, and, eventually, with much work and a great deal of luck, findable...


ken

[Fletcher]

Hi Georg.. it's been awhile.

The wheel gets OU during it's own swinging inside. Tip: create a swinging, pulsating system in the wheel.

These words may not be far from the truth, as I see it, but perhaps not in the way you visualize. I have something different in mind.

The trouble is we must have restoration to the mechs original Potential Energy state. This can happen by two means.

1. the mech always has a CoG above & to the side of its pivot & simply stays in that orientation regardless of where the pivot is (it doesn't move, as in following the wheel). The simplist anology would be any bottom heavy device hanging below a pivot but of course its CoG is directly below the pivot, which is of no use to us.

This would be classed as a non-moving device, so its Potential Energy remains constant. Trouble is we generally expect Potential Energy to be converted into Kinetic Energy in order for any usable torque to be created & applied, thereafter it must restore to full PE state again, to be continuous.

It is rather hard to see how this might provide torque to turn a wheel continuously but would be a good place to start.

2. The second way is to design a mech that can hold its CoG above & to the side of the pivot to which it is attached & then change a condition allowing it to swing like any normal bottom heavy device - then change its state back to the one that allows restoration to full PE. I favour this as a likely approach.

Coming up I will discuss possibilities for mechs that could possibly achieve both types of state. In essence they could morph from the fixed state to the swing state & back again, with just a little encouragement at the right time.

But first we have to come up with the fixed state design, that has possibilities, to which we can all apply our creative minds. This is when the members with mechanical aptitude, in excess of mine, should hopefully excel & make a contribution.

[Michael]

Fletcher you mentioned a gravity assisted wheel also using another enviromental factor, can you say what this other factor is?

[Fletcher]

Thanks for that ken .. we all do it from time to time & I certainly hope this current installment of this continuing thread is also not a major goof up & btw you're right about the 99.9999999999 % of attempts - we'll see if it holds true this time eh :)

"Nothing ventured, nothing gained". I'm bucking the safety first trend of .. "Its better to keep your mouth closed & thought a fool than open it & confirm it." It's risky but worth it imo.

[Fletcher]

Michael .. something surprisingly simple. I am wanting people to buy into this topic & understand it (even if they don't agree with my suppositions) b4 I reveal the next phase in the next day or so. It's important to do this because things are going to get exponentially harder or easier depending on your interest & ability.

[Paul]

Hi Fletcher, all this is very charming, however, at the moment, I am not able to find a method which does not require energy to repeat a cycle.....I follow with interest your thread.

Paul

[Fletcher]

Exactly Paul .. you got it in one .. so .. we have to have a different paradigm of thought about how to solve this riddle (Bessler surely did) or else we will be destined to repeat the same mistakes over & over.

It taxes the brain to try & look at the problem differently but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Imagination is the most powerful weapon in our collective arsenal.

I think Scott posted recently about his belief in the power of 'community & communication' to get some go forward on this. That was a nice way to say we have a unique brains trust here that is under utilized, mainly because we fail to all pull in the harness together. Personal agenda's often getting in the way.

I want to step forward & put up some ideas for a mech that I think may have potential (as I said). I have been mulling over this idea on & off for about 6 months now & I decided it was time to share it, for better or worse. Usually I would do experiments first (which I haven't this time) so this may seem premature for some, however I just think it is the right course of action for me this time around.

It seems like it could have some value as a way forward for us, perhaps with some more development, or it may get shot down in flames as so often happens. I can take the hits providing somebody is motivated enough to think & comment about it maturely. Like I said, people with more aptitude than me may be able to take it further.

I wanted to take some time to lay out the case for such a mechanism via an ongoing discussion format rather than a one-off paper (as I have done in the past) so that it would not immediately get forgotten & consigned to the waste bin of ideas in this age of instant gratification & one day shelf lives.

[Wheeler]

Hello Fletcher
You captured my imagination on this topic and so I am having many ideas.
Because of the heat rise and fall effect of motion, I was wondering if maybe a wheel can be made to use Thermoelectric coolers and then collect the heat again.
If the cooling can shrink one side, maybe it will pull to the center of axis during cooling process.

As the unit is started, heat will naturally occur and may also begin to be used on the expansion side.
The process would start out slow, but may build as unit begins to make a cycle of heat moving to cooling.
Use of the most heat expansive material used on ascending side while on the descending side uses the most contractive material.
Cooling could also be enhanced by evaporation if moisture is introduced.

[coylo]

Fletcher,
Is this going to turn into another "Bessler may have faked it" thread?

I'm not against exploring such possibilities, but the whole thing just doesn't sit well with me.

I'll never "sell out"!......hehee.

[rlortie]

Fletch,

No being an educated person with a knowledge of some words, I ask you;
Would you consider MT 137 and Dennis post of 'Harmony" a Symmetrically form or depiction. Or Bessler's divided circle of three wedge shaped sections?

Does these designs fit the criteria you are seeking here. If so then I see no reason to be talking thermal introduction to Besslers ultimate working design. I cannot understand what the introduction of hot and cold has to do with the symmetric definition in my dictionary.

Ralph

[Fletcher]

Wheeler .. thermal engines are interesting in themselves & Bill has the mortgage on that idea here so perhaps the question is better directed to him. I freely admit I am unable to come up with a viable idea that uses thermal gradients to achieve even anything remotely like Bessler achieved.

John Harrison who invented the dual pendulum based sea going chronometer for finding longitude at sea, about Besslers time, used opposing bi-metallic linkages in his pendulum rods to even out the expansion & contraction of the metals at different latitudes. These were temperature sensitive & enabled the amplitude of swing to stay relatively constant & thus keep good time over long periods at sea.

Coylo .. No, I'm not selling out. I just think he looked at the problem from a different perspective which I am advocating in this thread. But first we must understand why normal leverage based OOB wheels do not & never will work imo.

Only when I finally let go of that particularly persistent mirage could I even begin to turn my mind in other directions. That's why I find it hard to comment constructively on new old ideas as they appear. I just don't believe in their potential to do anything, no matter how they are tweaked.

My idea might prove fruitless but imo it is worthy of some healthy discussion. It's not so much the idea but the direction it takes us & the reasons for that. It does feel like sacrilege though :)

Ralph .. MT137 & Denis's harmony (which includes Besslers' wedges) are symmetrical drawings in the literal sense i.e. they are balanced & even looking. Symmetry can also relate to the energy & force development found in designs imo. We coin new words & meaning that are specific to Bessler research here all the time. Some won't be found in the Concise Oxford :) Perhaps in a few years.

So, no .. I don't think thermal gradients are what he used & I was only using that drawing as an anology to a wheel that turns while being able to restore itself to its original CoG position (highest potential) which the usual OOB designs can not do, ever.

[ken_behrendt]

I do not waste my time with thermal engines. Yes, they are certainly interesting and can demonstrate some of the principles of imbalance that would be utilized in a real gravity motor. But, in my opinion, Bessler's wheels were not thermally powered. They simply rotated far too quickly to have been powered by sluggish thermal systems.

Below I have attached a quick sketch which I hope can give some direction to those trying to solve the Bessler mystery. This sketch shows what I think a Bessler one-directional wheel would look like if we could remove 3 of its 4 opposed weight shifting mechanisms and then be able to visually track the motion of the CG of the remaining opposed pair of mechanisms.

If it was possible to do this, we would, during each 180&$176; of rotation of the wheel (considered to be CW in my sketch), see the CG of the opposed pair of mechanisms start out at the center of the wheel's axle, loop out onto the descending side of the wheel (its the right side in my sketch), and then again climb back to its starting position at the center of the wheel's axle.

Note that there is no net change in the gravitational potential energy of the system during this 180° of CW rotation. However, also note that during the half rotation of the wheel that the "average" location of the CG of the opposed pair (indicated by the tiny red dot) remains on the descending or right side of the wheel at all times.

While a single opposed pair of weight shifting mechanisms would probably not be able to make the drum rotate continuously, placing a total of four such opposed pairs into the drum, each with an angular displacement of 45° from its two nearest neighbors, should result in a chronically displaced composite CG for all of the rotating weights inside of the drum which will result in continuous rotation or perpetual motion.

But, once again, we are back to "square one" in that we do not have the design for the weight shifting mechanism that will cause the CG of a single opposed pair of these mechanisms to move as I have indicated in the sketch. That, of course, is why I did not attempt to show the mechanisms or even suggest them in the sketch.

I still believe that this mysterious "black box" mechanism only involves weighted levers and springs with, perhaps, a pulley line involved somehow. I'm still hoping that the breakthrough will occur before the end of this year and, finally, we will know what that mechanism, in general, looks like...


ken

[Wheeler]

OK
I do have an idea for a thermal engine, but I will post it on another topic sometime for everyone to show me why it will not work.

So if we are not going to have out of balance what other force is available?

Ken
If we we are going to have OOB like your image, would this not begin to rotate faster and faster?
If not would the weights and levers build speed, and then cf take such an active part that the system would act like a centrifugal clutch? Maybe having to slow down again for levers and weights to reset to add their mechanical advantage all over again.

[Fletcher]

Wheeler .. a possibility for a thermal engine that I like is to use shape memory alloys. As an example, in some building demolitions alloy rods are inserted into holes bored in concrete & then an electric current applied. They heat up & revert to their shorter fatter shape which cracks the concrete & demolishes the building. Enormous power.

Secondly we do have a OOB wheel, just not how we usually see it. Its been a busy day earning a crust so will discuss more tomorrow morning.