Symmetrically Balanced Systems – are they able to develop useable torque ?

[Fletcher]

.. Continuing the discussion.

I had resolved to my own satisfaction that I was approaching this OOB problem from the wrong perspective. If what I had previously tried was impossible (& I am certain it was for the reasons already outlined) then I needed to look in new directions.

Every analysis or build IÂ’d undertaken had started with a mech that wanted to inherently lower its CoG. Then by mechanical means the mech (singularly or coupled to another mech) had to be influenced by gravity to shift its Center of Mass (CoM) around & create torque in a wheel. I then somehow expected it to do a Lazarus & resurrect itself up to its starting position of full potential, to do it all again.

Perhaps to create a truly OOB wheel I would have to start with a mech that had innate tendencies to balance itself (i.e. be able to stand itself upright & was top heavy). This meant the CoG / CoM must be above the pivot & was contrary to most things I had attempted b4. If it were possible, I could start with a naturally balancing, top heavy mech, induce it to unbalance (fall over), use the torque & then let it recover to its natural upright state. This meant a mech that, when required, could keep its orientation regardless of the pivot moving beneath it.

Finding a potential mechanism to meet these requirements meant breaking the problem into two parts.

1. First, conceive a mech that could _balance_ itself upright & Â…

2. Second, that could then temporarily unbalance itself so I could get some useable torque from it.

That was the theory anyway. If I could get individual mechs to do this then their combined CoGÂ’s orbiting topside of the axle would be a cinch.

It initially seemed impossible without complex mechanics & excess energy to sustain it.

I looked to nature; after all, if we can walk upright & ‘balance’ ourselves then it should be possible to replicate this in some mechanical form or other. Spinning tops & gyro’s come to mind but they require a constant input of Rotational Kinetic Energy, once spin energy is depleted, to either stay upright or hold their position in space.

Tightrope walkers were interesting. They maintain their balance on high wire ropes by ensuring their CoG is always above their feet. With a little investigation it became clear how they kept their balance. They have to input muscular energy as does a child pumping a swing. They do this by carrying a horizontal balancing pole. When they feel themselves teetering & about to loose balance they rotate the pole with their arms, at the same time bending their torsos. The result is that rotational inertia is created in the poles, which they can then leverage against with their feet on the wire rope. The same way you can walk a railway track just by waving your arms for balance. So this seemed a dead end, as it needed excess energy to sustain the balance.

With a little lateral thinking & as improbable as it sounds, I then found something which I think is quite intriguing, which IÂ’ll discuss for all interested tomorrow.

[Wheeler]

Fletcher
This sounds exciting.
Is it possible that you have found a way to use the force of the weight in a circular manner?
Maybe left shifting to right and vic versa as weight is used.
Anyway nature is how I found my answers to my theory so I know answers are there, we just need to look closely.

Maybe you have an idea of how the gyroscopic motion of the wheel could be controlled or used.
That would be very cool.

[Wheeler]

Fletch
Sorry to keep interrupting, but I have not stopped drawing and thinking since your last post.
I have just now come up with an idea that may do exactly what you have said.
I do not know why I continued to do this, but if you want I will tell you what it is about in private message.
I want to work on it more tomorrow, I hope I have not found your idea.
However your posts made me look and look for it.

[digitaljez]

I am totaly intrigued by this. The suspense is causing me severe trauma. Please put me out of my misery Fletcher.

[Wheeler]

Me too

I started shaking and my friend is having cold chills all over since I mention he read the thread!

This ain't easy on us Fletch.

[coylo]

Wheeler, I've got to hand it to you......you really know how to suck the life out of a thread!

Would you please just let Fletcher do his thang!
(coylo out - who got out of the wrong side of bed this morning)

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Fletcher,
I still think that my way is correct: well balanced, not in balance, so you allow the system to swing.

With this, and also with the teeter tauter you can shift a mass sideways by not loosing potential energy. The pressure on the ground variates, by rolling !!

So you have a heavy and light side depending on the turning direction of the teeter tauter.

The shift mechanism is really simple.

For additional views have a look to my homepage www.kuenstler-energie.de, were you can see a non buildt 2 m prototype of the wheel.

The forced swinging is achived with the dowels. Have a look to the original Besslerwheel, maybe you can detect this.

the future has begun

Georg

[Fletcher]

Fletcher
This sounds exciting. Is it possible that you have found a way to use the force of the weight in a circular manner? Maybe left shifting to right and vic versa as weight is used.

Anyway nature is how I found my answers to my theory so I know answers are there, we just need to look closely.

Maybe you have an idea of how the gyroscopic motion of the wheel could be controlled or used. That would be very cool.

Hi Wheeler .. sorry to take so long, boys with bangs & builders needed my attention yesterday.

To answer you, no nothing as mysterious as that I'm afraid (grin).

Something quite straight forward. I'll answer the following posts quickly then finish the drawing of the basic mech components I started last night, in the next hour or so, then put it up for you to look at. Be prepared to be underwhelmed by its simplicity - should get you head scratching but then that's what I wanted to happen all along :)

[Fletcher]

Fletch, Sorry to keep interrupting, but I have not stopped drawing and thinking since your last post. I have just now come up with an idea that may do exactly what you have said.

I do not know why I continued to do this, but if you want I will tell you what it is about in private message. I want to work on it more tomorrow, I hope I have not found your idea. However your posts made me look and look for it.

Ruminate on it for a few hours more Wheeler, then you'll be able to see if its the same, then make your choices :)

[Fletcher]

I am totaly intrigued by this. The suspense is causing me severe trauma. Please put me out of my misery Fletcher.

Your trauma will abate, but I make no guarantees about the misery :) We will have to all put our thinking caps on to get to grips with this mechs potential.

[Fletcher]

Wheeler, I've got to hand it to you......you really know how to suck the life out of a thread!

Would you please just let Fletcher do his thang!
(coylo out - who got out of the wrong side of bed this morning)

Thanks Coylo .. You may want to climb back into it soon :)

[LustInBlack]

Fletcher : I didn't follow your thread up to that point ..
But interesting if you can get something out of ... a mystery ! ;]

Anyways, I have found something very interesting too, I wonder if we are not working on the same thing ..


Wheeler : I still wonder what designs you have made, or are working on .. !???? ..

[Fletcher]

Hi Fletcher,
I still think that my way is correct: well balanced, not in balance, so you allow the system to swing.

With this, and also with the teeter tauter you can shift a mass sideways by not loosing potential energy. The pressure on the ground variates, by rolling !!

So you have a heavy and light side depending on the turning direction of the teeter tauter.

The shift mechanism is really simple.

For additional views have a look to my homepage www.kuenstler-energie.de, were you can see a non buildt 2 m prototype of the wheel.

The forced swinging is achived with the dowels. Have a look to the original Besslerwheel, maybe you can detect this.

the future has begun

Georg

Yes Georg .. what I have previously referred to as the transition from stable to unstable state. How you might achieve it is the crux, as we would all agree.

Like I said b4 everyone has made a mech, vis-a-vis a wheel, that has the combined CoG below the axle. I propose to literally turn that concept upside down.

[Wheeler]

Fletcher
I have turned the idea upside down.
It seems to relate to human walking.

You must of studied walking, balance, sea saw, all the simple stuff.

Coylo Do you always want to go negeitive ?
If you have some idea that I a something you think is a threat to you, please explain it.

[ken_behrendt]

All these vague references to systems temporarily going in and out of balance are nice, but, I think its time to see some sketches so we will finally know what is really being discussed here.


ken