Winkle,
Lying is the intential act of presenting falsehood in order to deceive. I assume the writers of that website think they are presenting truth, but does that mean it is? It might be, but how can I tell if it is truth if there are no facts presented? The people that run that website might be sincere... hearts are God's territory. Everyone (except the truly corrupt) thinks they are talking the truth (otherwise they wouldn't try to argue their points).
There were only a few conclusions and some vague references to the historical record in that snippet you quoted. What would you say if you were me?
If I said to you "Contrary to the spread of Islam which allowed people freedom to choose, Christianity killed babies after baptizing them in south America in order to prevent them from growing up to be heathens, and so many babies were saved," how would you respond? I'm not asking you to prove that it didn't happen, or that it was wrong - just what do you expect from me? Remember you made the accusation against Islam. The burden of proof is on you.
Since you didn't clarify anything yet, I will. Islam does have a tax called jizya which protected minorities pay and get the protection of the Islamic state. What is your objection to that? Do you pay taxes now? Are you protected?
-Randall
Osama's Message to America!
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ken_behrendt
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re: Osama's Message to America!
Well, this morning I saw something which seems to indicate that Hezbollah is beginning to feel the strain of the ongoing Israeli assault on them. The Hezbollah leader got on Arab television and said that Hezbollah recognizes the legitimacy of the Lebanese government and will look to them to negotiate, through the UN, a cease fire with the Israeli's. Strange, for years they have, basically, dismissed the elected government and operated as a separate social and political entity...but things seem to be changing quickly with each new Israeli air strike.
That's a relief, but Hezbollah may not like the idea that any cease fire deal will require them to completely disarm and renounce all future violence against Israeli citizens.
Meanwhile, in the last 24 hours, over 100 rockets landed in northern Israel and they continue to take more casualties. It's estimated that, so far, only about 200 of the 4 to 5,000 Hezbollah fighters have been killed, but I suspect that the actual number is probably closer to 1000.
When the smoke finally clears, the Lebanese will have an entire country's infrastructure to rebuild and will be facing years of occupation by UN peacekeeping troops. This, no doubt, will send a powerful message to the rest of Israel's neighbors about the futility of trying to harass the Jewish state or overthrow it.
However, it will not remove the risk of a full scale war against the Israeli's with nuclear weapons. That is the ever growing threat in the Middle East that continues at this very moment.
A few days ago, both Russia and China agree to sponsor a UN Security Council Resolution that would require Iran to completely and immediately cease all uranium enrichment operations by the end of this August or face crippling sanctions.
My prediction is that Iranian compliance will not happen. Because their religious leadership believes that they are destined to dominate the Middle East, they will continue right along with their program while declaring it is solely for peaceful civilian power generation and that, in turn, will lead to an air campaign of unprecessidented proportions to shut down their facilities. That, in turn, could lead to actual ground fighting in both Iraq and Afghanistan between Iranian and Western military forces.
Should this happen, then, like Lebanon, Iran will be reduced to a state in which it will no longer be able to dominate the Middle East. That will then create the potential for a democratic revolution within their country that will permanently curtail the power of the present ruling ayatollahs.
The next six months will be pivotal ones in the shaping of the Middle East.
ken
That's a relief, but Hezbollah may not like the idea that any cease fire deal will require them to completely disarm and renounce all future violence against Israeli citizens.
Meanwhile, in the last 24 hours, over 100 rockets landed in northern Israel and they continue to take more casualties. It's estimated that, so far, only about 200 of the 4 to 5,000 Hezbollah fighters have been killed, but I suspect that the actual number is probably closer to 1000.
When the smoke finally clears, the Lebanese will have an entire country's infrastructure to rebuild and will be facing years of occupation by UN peacekeeping troops. This, no doubt, will send a powerful message to the rest of Israel's neighbors about the futility of trying to harass the Jewish state or overthrow it.
However, it will not remove the risk of a full scale war against the Israeli's with nuclear weapons. That is the ever growing threat in the Middle East that continues at this very moment.
A few days ago, both Russia and China agree to sponsor a UN Security Council Resolution that would require Iran to completely and immediately cease all uranium enrichment operations by the end of this August or face crippling sanctions.
My prediction is that Iranian compliance will not happen. Because their religious leadership believes that they are destined to dominate the Middle East, they will continue right along with their program while declaring it is solely for peaceful civilian power generation and that, in turn, will lead to an air campaign of unprecessidented proportions to shut down their facilities. That, in turn, could lead to actual ground fighting in both Iraq and Afghanistan between Iranian and Western military forces.
Should this happen, then, like Lebanon, Iran will be reduced to a state in which it will no longer be able to dominate the Middle East. That will then create the potential for a democratic revolution within their country that will permanently curtail the power of the present ruling ayatollahs.
The next six months will be pivotal ones in the shaping of the Middle East.
ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Re: re: Osama's Message to America!
rmd3 wrote:Winkle,
Lying is the intential act of presenting falsehood in order to deceive. I assume the writers of that website think they are presenting truth, but does that mean it is? It might be, but how can I tell if it is truth if there are no facts presented? The people that run that website might be sincere... hearts are God's territory. Everyone (except the truly corrupt) thinks they are talking the truth (otherwise they wouldn't try to argue their points).
There were only a few conclusions and some vague references to the historical record in that snippet you quoted. What would you say if you were me?
If I said to you "Contrary to the spread of Islam which allowed people freedom to choose, Christianity killed babies after baptizing them in south America in order to prevent them from growing up to be heathens, and so many babies were saved," how would you respond? I'm not asking you to prove that it didn't happen, or that it was wrong - just what do you expect from me? Remember you made the accusation against Islam. The burden of proof is on you.
Since you didn't clarify anything yet, I will. Islam does have a tax called jizya which protected minorities pay and get the protection of the Islamic state. What is your objection to that? Do you pay taxes now? Are you protected?
-Randall
well at least you got the tax part right
this must be the freedom of choice you speak of
convert or die
Under the interpretation of Islamic Sharia law on which Afghanistan's constitution is based, Mr Rahman faces the death penalty unless he reconverts to Islam.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4841334.stm
perhaps this is the peaceful start of islam that you're speaking of
http://www.islamfortoday.com/shia.htm
the uneducated
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ken_behrendt
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re: Osama's Message to America!
Well, Israel might be making progress in their efforts to lessen the threat presented to northern Israel by Hezbollah rockets, but they now seem to be losing the public relations war! I've seen this happen with other military actions they've taken.
First it started when the Israeli air force dropped four laser guided bombs on a UN observer post killing four UN observers. That post had been there for 30 years and, when the bombing began to get close to the post, the commander there called the Israeli military ten times over a six hour period and gave them his coordinates so that his post would not be bombed. That has got to be the foggiest "fog of war" that I have ever heard of!
Next, the other day, the Israeli's bombed a four story building in the Lebanese town of Qana and it turned out that it was being used as a shelter. The result was 40 more dead Lebanese, about half of which were children, and scores more injured.
As a result of the continous airing of these events on Arab television, muslim hatred toward Israel is now at an all time high, the UN offices in Beirut were ransacked by angry mobs, and the Prime Minister of Lebanon has informed US Secretary of State, Condolezza Rice, that they do not want to talk with her.
These events are all, of course, very tragic and every effort must be made to prevent them if at all possible.
However, while the condemnation of Israeli's is at an all time high, no one seems too concerned about the 2 million Israeli's that were forced to either evacuate from northern Israel or hideout in a bomb shelter for the last week or so. Also, no one seems to be putting any blame for the loss of innocent life on Hezbollah for purposely placing missile launchers on or near schools, hospitals, and residential buildings and, thus, in effect, using the Lebanese as human shields to protect these weapon systems.
I still think that, in general, the wider world feels Israel is "in the right' as far as its military action is concerned, but the fact still remains that Israel has killed about 10 times more Lebanese citizens than it has lost itself and most of them were non-combatants civilians. Maybe the world would be more sympathetic if the Israeli losses were higher?
Let's all hope and pray that this mess will be over with as soon as possible and the real issue of the return of the captured Palestinian territory can finally be addressed by Israel and the UN. I do not think a lasting peace in the region can exist until and unless that matter is finally settled once and for all.
ken
First it started when the Israeli air force dropped four laser guided bombs on a UN observer post killing four UN observers. That post had been there for 30 years and, when the bombing began to get close to the post, the commander there called the Israeli military ten times over a six hour period and gave them his coordinates so that his post would not be bombed. That has got to be the foggiest "fog of war" that I have ever heard of!
Next, the other day, the Israeli's bombed a four story building in the Lebanese town of Qana and it turned out that it was being used as a shelter. The result was 40 more dead Lebanese, about half of which were children, and scores more injured.
As a result of the continous airing of these events on Arab television, muslim hatred toward Israel is now at an all time high, the UN offices in Beirut were ransacked by angry mobs, and the Prime Minister of Lebanon has informed US Secretary of State, Condolezza Rice, that they do not want to talk with her.
These events are all, of course, very tragic and every effort must be made to prevent them if at all possible.
However, while the condemnation of Israeli's is at an all time high, no one seems too concerned about the 2 million Israeli's that were forced to either evacuate from northern Israel or hideout in a bomb shelter for the last week or so. Also, no one seems to be putting any blame for the loss of innocent life on Hezbollah for purposely placing missile launchers on or near schools, hospitals, and residential buildings and, thus, in effect, using the Lebanese as human shields to protect these weapon systems.
I still think that, in general, the wider world feels Israel is "in the right' as far as its military action is concerned, but the fact still remains that Israel has killed about 10 times more Lebanese citizens than it has lost itself and most of them were non-combatants civilians. Maybe the world would be more sympathetic if the Israeli losses were higher?
Let's all hope and pray that this mess will be over with as soon as possible and the real issue of the return of the captured Palestinian territory can finally be addressed by Israel and the UN. I do not think a lasting peace in the region can exist until and unless that matter is finally settled once and for all.
ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
re: Osama's Message to America!
That's certainly not the case here Ken. I suspect that Israel is hated by its neighbours because it was created and is maintained by displacing them with deadly force. Most people grasp the history.Ken wrote:I still think that, in general, the wider world feels Israel is "in the right' as far as its military action is concerned...
What civilised nation would sacrifice a few dozen innocent hostage civilians (with 'precision' US bombs!) in order to kill a suspected military combatant - and then demand respect and understanding from the World? I just can't imagine Israeli's leveling one of their own buildings full of civilians because they thought it contained an enemy combatant.
I'm sure the Lebonese are wondering when their holocaust will end.
re: Osama's Message to America!
Ken,
That's why everybody at the UN except the US, UK and Israel backed an immediate ceasefire?
-Randall
Winkle,
You saidÂ…
YouÂ’re quoted piece saidÂ…
(1) convert to Islam
(2) pay a special tax (and be a protected minority excluding them from military service)
(3) fight
It should be noted that the Muslims would send envoys to the lands they intended to conquer with this message, so the third choice was always fight -- not roll-over and let us kill you. They didnÂ’t make up fabricated pretext of WMDs, they were straight forward and honest about it.
So the real choice for anyone who didnÂ’t willingly accept Islam was: pay jizya or fight. Tell me, what do you particularly find unfair about those choices?
Then I say it again, do you pay taxes now? Maybe you donÂ’t like it, but you do pay. Otherwise, youÂ’d be fighting to not pay (or the state would be fighting you by chasing you down and incarcerating you). DidnÂ’t we learn that the Founding Fathers fought the American Revolution because we didnÂ’t want to pay a tax? Boston Tea Party ring any bells?
DonÂ’t complain about something you already do anywayÂ… it just happens to not be paid to an Islamic state. So what?
Under the interpretation of Islamic Sharia law on which Afghanistan's constitution is based, Mr Rahman faces the death penalty unless he reconverts to Islam.
First, this is apostasy and not conversion. They arenÂ’t the same in Islam. They donÂ’t have the same rules. There *are* conditions for which an apostate is dealt capital punishment. But before I go further, I want to have a clearer understanding of your perspective. What is your particular objection to this? I assume you think it is wrong, and I need to know why you think that. What makes it wrong?
-Randall
That's why everybody at the UN except the US, UK and Israel backed an immediate ceasefire?
-Randall
Winkle,
You saidÂ…
Yes, and letÂ’s put it in perspective with what you lifted off that Christian source.well at least you got the tax part right
this must be the freedom of choice you speak of
convert or die
YouÂ’re quoted piece saidÂ…
LetÂ’s make it clear. The choices were:While it is true that many did convert willingly to Islam, the Muslims also conquered vast areas of land in the Middle East and Northern Africa during the seventh and eighth centuries. When they attacked or occupied new territory, they gave its inhabitants three options: convert to Islam, pay a special tax, or die. Under these circumstances many chose to pay the tax, and many others chose to convert to Islam.
(1) convert to Islam
(2) pay a special tax (and be a protected minority excluding them from military service)
(3) fight
It should be noted that the Muslims would send envoys to the lands they intended to conquer with this message, so the third choice was always fight -- not roll-over and let us kill you. They didnÂ’t make up fabricated pretext of WMDs, they were straight forward and honest about it.
So the real choice for anyone who didnÂ’t willingly accept Islam was: pay jizya or fight. Tell me, what do you particularly find unfair about those choices?
Then I say it again, do you pay taxes now? Maybe you donÂ’t like it, but you do pay. Otherwise, youÂ’d be fighting to not pay (or the state would be fighting you by chasing you down and incarcerating you). DidnÂ’t we learn that the Founding Fathers fought the American Revolution because we didnÂ’t want to pay a tax? Boston Tea Party ring any bells?
DonÂ’t complain about something you already do anywayÂ… it just happens to not be paid to an Islamic state. So what?
Under the interpretation of Islamic Sharia law on which Afghanistan's constitution is based, Mr Rahman faces the death penalty unless he reconverts to Islam.
First, this is apostasy and not conversion. They arenÂ’t the same in Islam. They donÂ’t have the same rules. There *are* conditions for which an apostate is dealt capital punishment. But before I go further, I want to have a clearer understanding of your perspective. What is your particular objection to this? I assume you think it is wrong, and I need to know why you think that. What makes it wrong?
No. It wasnÂ’t what I was talking about at all. That article highlights infighting amongst Muslims. It has nothing to do with what you claimed Islam started out as. It is well known in the history as the great fitnah (or tribulation). What can be said about it is that both sides had good intentions to correct a wrong, but there were unfortunate consequences. Infighting is a sad reality not unique to IslamÂ… ever hear about Protestants and Catholics in Ireland?perhaps this is the peaceful start of islam that you're speaking of
http://www.islamfortoday.com/shia.htm
-Randall
re: Osama's Message to America!
I forgot to quote something properly...
Sorry I didn't quote this properly. This is from the URL that Winkle posted in his previous post (which he also forgot to quote properly).
-Randall
Under the interpretation of Islamic Sharia law on which Afghanistan's constitution is based, Mr Rahman faces the death penalty unless he reconverts to Islam.
Sorry I didn't quote this properly. This is from the URL that Winkle posted in his previous post (which he also forgot to quote properly).
-Randall
Re: re: Osama's Message to America!
America just to name one nationovyyus wrote:That's certainly not the case here Ken. I suspect that Israel is hated by its neighbours because it was created and is maintained by displacing them with deadly force. Most people grasp the history.Ken wrote:I still think that, in general, the wider world feels Israel is "in the right' as far as its military action is concerned...
What civilised nation would sacrifice a few dozen innocent hostage civilians (with 'precision' US bombs!) in order to kill a suspected military combatant - and then demand respect and understanding from the World? I just can't imagine Israeli's leveling one of their own buildings full of civilians because they thought it contained an enemy combatant.
I'm sure the Lebonese are wondering when their holocaust will end.
Australia took out it's share of innocents and kids in Vietnam
by the way we did steal (if it can be called stealing) this country from the indians and mexicans
and do you think Australia should be returned to the folks it was stollen from
through out all history in all aspects of life you only own what you can hold on to
looks like Israel plains to hold on
i disagree with Americas war but not with the Israeli's
i read some where that stated that if the destruction of Israel became inevitable they will launch all of their missiles at long ago selected targets
in my oppinion the arabs had better pray they never defeat Israel
because i belive the winning will be worse than the losing
Last edited by winkle on Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
the uneducated
if your gona be dumb you gota be tough
Who need drugs when you can have fatigue toxins and caffeine
if your gona be dumb you gota be tough
Who need drugs when you can have fatigue toxins and caffeine
re: Osama's Message to America!
rmd3
i don't know why you're still talking about this to me
we both have opinions about this subject that will not change
you are just wasting my time and i am wasting you're time
so whats the point
i don't know why you're still talking about this to me
we both have opinions about this subject that will not change
you are just wasting my time and i am wasting you're time
so whats the point
the uneducated
if your gona be dumb you gota be tough
Who need drugs when you can have fatigue toxins and caffeine
if your gona be dumb you gota be tough
Who need drugs when you can have fatigue toxins and caffeine
re: Osama's Message to America!
Winkle, your description of Israel is frightening: It recently stole all of it's land by deadly force. It presently keeps all of it's stolen land by deadly force. Should the previous owners of that land ever win the war to get it back then they and their Middle East neighbours will be destroyed by last minute Israeli suicide/revenge nukes! Awful stuff.
Hopefully one day soon these people will all see their obvious similarities rather than their minor differences.
Hopefully one day soon these people will all see their obvious similarities rather than their minor differences.
re: Osama's Message to America!
the rest of us also keep our countrys by deadly force
if that is not so why does you're country keep a standing army
it is the same scenario that would have played out if America and the USSR had ever gone to war
there has been war throughout all history
what i can't figure out is why anyone thinks war is going away anytime soon
when all the standing armys in the world are retired there might be peace but i dought it
but death is only an isue for those that don't belive there is a spurtial life after
there is this saying also a brave man dies once a coward dies a thousand times
war the numbers are shocking
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/?qid= ... 516AAAnrMW
if that is not so why does you're country keep a standing army
it is the same scenario that would have played out if America and the USSR had ever gone to war
there has been war throughout all history
what i can't figure out is why anyone thinks war is going away anytime soon
when all the standing armys in the world are retired there might be peace but i dought it
but death is only an isue for those that don't belive there is a spurtial life after
there is this saying also a brave man dies once a coward dies a thousand times
war the numbers are shocking
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/?qid= ... 516AAAnrMW
the uneducated
if your gona be dumb you gota be tough
Who need drugs when you can have fatigue toxins and caffeine
if your gona be dumb you gota be tough
Who need drugs when you can have fatigue toxins and caffeine
re: Osama's Message to America!
Winkle, that may be so, but Israel is asking for respect and understanding from the World - as though the barbarity of it can be justified in some way.
Try telling that to a sinner :Dwinkle wrote:but death is only an isue for those that don't belive there is a spurtial life after
re: Osama's Message to America!
Winkle,
You said...
I was actually learning a lot from both you and Steve, but he bowed out right when the discussion was getting to a point of key learning for me. I didn't think it was a waste of time with him or you, except a bit when I would delay playing some game with my kids because I was putting careful thought into understanding the arguments made by others and the ones I was putting forth.
Anyway, if you don't want to respond, I can live with that. Just think about this...
Ever wonder why Jesus was killed? Of course, Muslims believe he was not killed and that God raised him to the heavens to return near the end of time and kill the antichrist, just so you know. Still... under what pretext do Christians believe Jesus was crucified? The Jews of that time had a complaint... what was that complaint? ...let's see... Jesus, according to the Christians, was committing blasphemy. What was that blasphemy? Calling them to believe in a Trinity, that God had a Son, and that the Son must die so God can forgive those who believe that.
Let's check the Torah...
Again, I ask you (and I don't know if you are a Christian or not), what specifically do you think is wrong with killing an apostate? Teach me your understanding. I really want to understand your perspective.
-Randall
You said...
rmd3
i don't know why you're still talking about this to me
we both have opinions about this subject that will not change
you are just wasting my time and i am wasting you're time
so whats the point
I was actually learning a lot from both you and Steve, but he bowed out right when the discussion was getting to a point of key learning for me. I didn't think it was a waste of time with him or you, except a bit when I would delay playing some game with my kids because I was putting careful thought into understanding the arguments made by others and the ones I was putting forth.
Anyway, if you don't want to respond, I can live with that. Just think about this...
Ever wonder why Jesus was killed? Of course, Muslims believe he was not killed and that God raised him to the heavens to return near the end of time and kill the antichrist, just so you know. Still... under what pretext do Christians believe Jesus was crucified? The Jews of that time had a complaint... what was that complaint? ...let's see... Jesus, according to the Christians, was committing blasphemy. What was that blasphemy? Calling them to believe in a Trinity, that God had a Son, and that the Son must die so God can forgive those who believe that.
Let's check the Torah...
So Jesus was killed for apostasy it seems. If you are a Christian, you're whole creed hinges on someone being killed for apostasy.Deuteronomy 13:6-10:
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
(taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy)
Again, I ask you (and I don't know if you are a Christian or not), what specifically do you think is wrong with killing an apostate? Teach me your understanding. I really want to understand your perspective.
-Randall
Re: re: Osama's Message to America!
well all i can say is that if you're people were in the same situation they would be doing the same thingovyyus wrote:Winkle, that may be so, but Israel is asking for respect and understanding from the World - as though the barbarity of it can be justified in some way.
and this if the people of lebanon will not take out their own trash (hesbola) then somebody else will
if the democrats and republicans here don't like the way things are going should they start arming them selves to enforce their ideas
lebanon does have a government you know
Last edited by winkle on Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
the uneducated
if your gona be dumb you gota be tough
Who need drugs when you can have fatigue toxins and caffeine
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Who need drugs when you can have fatigue toxins and caffeine
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ken_behrendt
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re: Osama's Message to America!
Bill wrote:
There was some encouraging news today. The Israeli's have suspended the air campaign for 48 hours for "humanitarian" purposes (although the ground battle continues) and US Secretary of State Condolizza Rice said earlier today that she "thinks" that a complete ceasefire can be in effect within a week!
That's good. Of course, then there is the minor problem of disarming Hezbollah so that UN peacekeeping troops can enter the southern Lebanese "buffer zone" and start...keeping the peace. Will Hezbollah accept this disarming? I now think it is possible, but they will have to be directed to do so by their bosses over in Syria and Iran.
It's starting to look like this could cool off before it turns into a major conflagration...but, I've been wrong before!
ken
Well put. The problem with the ongoing violence is that it prevents the economic development of the region and the raising of the standards of living of the Palestinians and the Arabs in neighboring countries. Even Syria is still only a poor country although they seem, like North Korea, to have enough money to have a ballistic missile program. Once the violence has ended, and the Arabs and Israeli's finally acknowledge that they are both descended from Abraham, maybe they will then be able to go on to forge a strong and mutually beneficial relationship in the future.Hopefully one day soon these people will all see their obvious similarities rather than their minor differences.
There was some encouraging news today. The Israeli's have suspended the air campaign for 48 hours for "humanitarian" purposes (although the ground battle continues) and US Secretary of State Condolizza Rice said earlier today that she "thinks" that a complete ceasefire can be in effect within a week!
That's good. Of course, then there is the minor problem of disarming Hezbollah so that UN peacekeeping troops can enter the southern Lebanese "buffer zone" and start...keeping the peace. Will Hezbollah accept this disarming? I now think it is possible, but they will have to be directed to do so by their bosses over in Syria and Iran.
It's starting to look like this could cool off before it turns into a major conflagration...but, I've been wrong before!
ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ