It was running...

[Driggsen]

The strangest thing happendÂ…
I really thought I had a working device – and maybe I actually have. I’ ve been working on the idea for years and this summer I decided to build it. So a week ago it was running for the first time. I was extremely excitet and almost had a heartattak when it was going through the second cyclus – the third – the fourth I couldn’t believe it, and it just went on and on without loosing any power at all. But then suddenly it stopped. It had run for exactely 5 minutes and 34 seconds. I started it again and it run for 5 minutes and 28 seconds. There is absolutely no reason, why it should stop. It is a selfstarting device and if it can run for 2 cycles it should run forever. But it doesn’t. Why?

My partner Sydney came up with a strange theory: What if there is only space for a certain amount of potential energi in the univers. To gain energy you have to use energi. You have to convert work into energi. If the Energi suddenly comes out of nothing, where should it go? There is no room for it. Maybe there is a little buffer that is filled up after 5 and a half minutes. When it is filled up, the device stopps.

If Sydney is right, then it is impossible to get energy from a PM. Not because of the known physically laws but because of something that we do not understand.

I am really frustrated about it, and I am reviewing my design right nowÂ….

[Flit]

How about you build a second one and run it backwards to counteract the build up.

[KAS]

James, Are you able to explain or illustrate you design so that forum members may comment?

[KAS]

I called you James in the last post. My appologies. I meant Thomas.

[ovyyus]

Might be a component losing tolerance after a few minutes of friction heating? Thomas, hard to guess without more info - sounds pretty interesting though. What size is the wheel, assuming it is a wheel?

[coylo]

Are sure your device just didn't convert all it's potential energy into motion and stopped when it had none!

For example.........it stopped when the weights had fallen to their maximum (rest).

[Driggsen]

It is resetting after every cyclus. After one cyclus it is exactly back to where it startet. And then it just keeps repeating itself. There are no falling weights. I use very good bearings and a solid suspension and I cant see, that anything is loosing its tollerance or adjustment by running for 5 and a half minutes.

[jim_mich]

Welcome Driggsen!

How does it stop? Is it turning quite fast then suddenly stop?

What speed does it turn, quite fast or very slow? Is it barely turning and cannot quit make another cycle? Or is it clipping right along and then sudden quits turning?

It's the small descriptive details that help us figure out what is happening.

[Driggsen]

It is pretty fast, I think – at least it’s much faster than we expected. We calculated with 25 RPM and it actually does 112 RPM. It is very stable, going 112 RPM for about 5 minutes, then it slows down and gets a little unstable and starts to bounce a little. Once it starts bouncing it slows down fast (within seconds) and stops. I can start it by hand imediately after it stopped and the whole thing repeats itself.

[jim_mich]

OK, it's the bouncing around and instability that stops the wheel. That makes sense. Bouncing or eratic weight movement can quickly drain energy from a wheel.

What makes the wheel start up? You say it is selfstarting. How does it selfstart? Is it out of balance and gravity starts it turning? Or is it spring loaded and the spring tension starts it turning? How sure are you that the very first cycle is like the second and other cycles? You say you can start it by hand and the whole thing repeats itself. Does this mean you start it manually rather than it selfstarting? Obviously the wheel is not in the same condition after stoping that it was in before starting else it would selfstart again imeadiately. It is most likely this difference that gives the wheel its initial starting energy. Then the bouncing drains that energy and it stops.

[rlortie]

Some years ago I had the same descriptive story with a magneticly suspended wheel. It would run for approximently five minutes and then slow where it would start bouncing and then stop.

I had to give it a shove to start, but then it would settle into a given rpm and stay there for the five minute or so duration. After slowing the bouncing or ratcheting would start, slowing the wheel to an abrupt stop.

My analysis was that the magnetic lines of force would eventualy build in potential causing what I remember as the Burckhousen Effect or something of that nature. Been to long for this old man to remember.

I do remember that the effect was discussed on the JLN lab forum.

Are you using magnets?

Ralph

[Jetrix]

Make it do work during that five minutes and use that work to restart it after it stops... I would not mind if my car did a little hickup in every five minutes... If it can't make any work while turning, it is useless anyway and you can move to something else :) (seriously speaking, if it is turning that five minutes you already have an OU machine (the bearings are heating and it is moving air assuming it is in normal air pressure))

[Tinhead]

Ralph is right there,
if you use magnets in any way there are severall effects that can show up. Especially in a cyclic environment ( as one imagines a wheel might be).


The most popular definition of magnetostriction said that magnetostriction is a change of shape, dimensions and mechanical properties under the influence of a magnetic field; or alternatively it is a change of magnetic properties (i.e. magnetization and permability) under the influence of stress and strain.

Several magneto-mechanical effects have been discovered, as follow:

Joule effect (magnetostriction or linear magnetostriction)
Villari effect (inverse magnetostriction or inverse Joule effect)
Barrett effect (volume magnetostriction)
Guillemin effect
Wiedemann effect
Matteucci effect (inverse Wiedmann effect)
Barnett effect
Einstein - de Haas effect
Barkhausen effect


Other scenario, you are not using magnets, but you are applying stress forces to ferromagnetic materials .. springs, bending rods, etc. ... in that case some of those effects might apply too (in a way you have temporary 'mini' magnets).

Cheers,
Rainer

[JuddBrooks]

I am reminded of a coin spun on a table. Spins for awhile and when it finally loses its mometum it begins to (shudder, shake, rattle, vibrate, etc), even speed up in a last gasp before laying flat.

I understand that if you intend to patent you would be cautious about giving away details.

But to diagnose your problem the group has asked for details. Would it be possible to state if magnets, springs, tension bars, weights, etc are involved. What size device. Do you make any repairs before restart. Do you always 'reset' to a certain position before starting. Can it be restarted with just a slight push of hand from any position and run 5 minutes or must it always be repositioned to a certain point to start. Are we even talking about a gravity wheel or a hybrid magnet motor or whatever.
Again, I would urge you not to give details that threaten your patent process, but there is much that could be said that would not do that.

Congrats and wishing you continued sucess.!

[ken_behrendt]

Thomas wrote:

I was extremely excitet and almost had a heartattak when it was going through the second cyclus – the third – the fourth I couldn’t believe it, and it just went on and on without loosing any power at all. But then suddenly it stopped. It had run for exactely 5 minutes and 34 seconds. I started it again and it run for 5 minutes and 28 seconds. There is absolutely no reason, why it should stop. It is a selfstarting device and if it can run for 2 cycles it should run forever. But it doesn’t. Why?

Without knowing all of the details of your device, it is, indeed, difficult to explain why it should run smoothly for several minutes and then suddenly conk out. Possibly, IF the device is mounted on magnetic bearings of some sort, there could be a build up of eddy currents within the magnets that, after 5+ minutes, begins to interfer with the magnetic fields so that the rotation becomes unsteady. The resulting wobbling might then be interfering with whatever processes maintain the motion.

I'm only guessing at all of this, of course. Any chance of you posting a photo of the device or giving us more details about its components?



ken