When to announce success?

[John Collins]

This may be premature but I think it needs to be discussed.

It seems to me that if I were to succeed in reconstructing Bessler's wheel, I would not make any announcement here or anywhere else until I had taken a number of precautions.

It may be a sign of paranoia but, as many here know, I don't trust the patent system and would not therefore attempt to patent the device. I know Pete (Clarkie) is a firm believer in the patent system having dealt with such things many times over a number of years, but what I want to know is this. If an invention is regarded as of 'national importance' it can be confiscated by the government and the inventor is left with nothing. Would such a device be regarded as a matter of national importance?

I say yes for the following reasons. A big chunk of the government tax revenue is generated by sales of oil related items - vehicle fuel, heating etc, a 'free-energy' device would cut an enormous hole in the budget, maybe not a first but certainly over a very few years. I know all governments pay lipservice to clean energy and the search for alternative forms of energy, but the truth is that without a tax on fuel they'd be hopelessly out of pocket. How can governments retain their share of revenue with a free-energy device supplying all energy needs?

If someone does produce a free-energy device how best to proceed? If we avoid the patent route - do I hear Pete protesting already :-) - is the best way forward an announcement with full details here and elsewhere or would that cause someone in government to close this and other web sites down? You may think that that is over-cautious but if you consider the ramifications of a free-energy device and its tax revenue implications you can see that someone might think it in the best interests of all governments to remove the information as quickly as possible.

Broadcasting the information as quickly and widely as possible seems to be the best option and what Steorn did is not a bad method, but not many people can afford to gamble £75000 on a single advert.

Any thoughts? Am I paranoid?

John Collins

[ovyyus]

Broadcasting the information as quickly and widely as possible seems to be the best option...

Yes John, I totally agree - no announcement required. Simultaneous delivery of the full disclosure to every person on your contact list, with instructions to pass it on, publish to the web, etc, would ensure a virtually risk-free global public release within a very short time frame. What happens after that would certainly be interesting to watch.

As far as lost tax revenue is concerned, governments have never had problems implementing new and/or alternative taxes ;)

[james kelly]

Gentlemen; I want to ask a question. If this is your opinion, and the best way is to come out on many fronts; in order to protect your rights to this said invention. what do you suppose would happen in reality. I have been stung by patent attorneys several times before. James L. Kelly
.

[KAS]

It's true that vital revenue will be lost if a free energy device is invented.
However, The British government has just announced massive grants and sweeteners to the nuclear industry to design produce the next generation of nuclear reactors.
If the treasury could avoid these huge costs I think it would.
And as ovyyus stated, new taxes would suddenly appear anyway.
The television licence is a prime example.
I think they would probably introduce a licence for anyone owning an energy producing device.


As for the patent question. Unfortunately, the world is an open market where Plagiarising other peoples ideas is a fact of life.
You could however try to control it in your own country to secure an income for yourself.

Kas

[winkle]

John

our beloved and oh so kind governments would most likely just require any kind of free energy devise to be hooked into the meter already attached to the side of you're house and tax us double

the power companys wont get cut out completely because they will still need to read the meters that will cost triple

over all we should get out with about a ten percent increase in our rates

and we will have you to thank for it

you need to patent to help pay those higher rates are else you could wind up ten percent in the hole like the rest of us

really though you should patent and if they try to silence you go public with the idea big time

if people were to become aware they would not stand for any funny business from big brother and i'm not talking about Scott

someone will find a way to control it might as well be you

hummm hope you don't have an accident

[jim_mich]

I believe a working free energy device would be considered a threat to national (economic) security and as such would be very likely to be suppressed by the government. In the U.S. there is a patent gag order law. I think you should keep the details quit until you're prepared to broadcast the information as quickly and widely as possible and file a patent applications a few days before your announcment. If the whole world knows the invention details then any government suppression will have no effect.

I agree with Pete that a patent is very important. It's like a title to an automobile or title to a home. Those little pieces of paper allow you to use your car and to live in your home. They prevent others from moving into your house and forcing you out. If that were to happen you would take them to court and get a court order for them to leave your home. The same for your automobile. The same for your invention. If you want to open your home and let anyone live there then you're free to do so. But the title gives you the option. Without a patent you have no options!

Also a patent will record your idea so that when the patent expires other may benefit and the idea will not be lost like Bessler's was.

[bluesgtr44]

A big chunk of the government tax revenue is generated by sales of oil related items - vehicle fuel, heating etc, a 'free-energy' device would cut an enormous hole in the budget, maybe not a first but certainly over a very few years.

It's true that vital revenue will be lost if a free energy device is invented.

our beloved and oh so kind governments would most likely just require any kind of free energy devise to be hooked into the meter already attached to the side of you're house and tax us double

I believe a working free energy device would be considered a threat to national (economic) security and as such would be very likely to be suppressed by the government.

I am not fully convinced that finding Besslers secret is going to lead to anything in the way of "massive free energy"....I mean, we basically have no idea of the full potential of a device of this sort. It might be limited...very limited. I admit to having a hard time seeing this energy revolution taking hold and the whole landscape of how this country runs (power wise) being brought to it's knees by a Bessler wheel. To me, if one finally taps into gravity (or finds the mechanical advantage to avoid gravitational effects)...whichever one suits your own definition of what would be happening to sustain a perpetual motion, would just be the realization of potential... just how much potential? We don't know....

If gravity is found to remain constant in this situation...it is likely that these devices could be very limited. The potential of one of these 300 years ago would have been earth shattering...given the technology of the day. Today, it wouldn't even be a blip on the screen.

I am not saying that it couldn't happen. Just that the practical side of me sees the obstacles and the reality of potential (we are talking about a wheel here) may not live up to the expectations of power consumption we live in today.


Steve

[winkle]

Steve

i mostly agree with with what you said

my own opinion is that when it becomes a proven possibility the establishment will be dredged out of the trench they have been residing in for so very long

who knows what that may bring to be

[Joel Wright]

From whats known about a bessler gravity motor(The recorded facts from the demostrations)(IMUEO in my uneducated opinion)I would say its not going to be competion for the wind mill industry,let alone the oil behemoths.With all due respect,I feel your letting your imagination run away with you John.

[Michael]

I agree that a patent is a good idea. I also agree with Steve, there's not a whole lot of power to be rekoned with. I also think it's wise to stay in the moment, wait until you have something working and then let the state of the times dictate what to do.

[Clarkie]

Well John, you have started something haven't you.

To patent or not to patent------------ you know the rest.

If you do it must be done so as not to alert the UK patent office to PM, is will need to be something else like a "water wheel with an internal system to even out variations in flow" stupid I know but you need to get it accepted as a bla bla patent where it goes into the in tray for bla bla machines.

Once its in you need to wait quietly for 6 weeks, nobody will even look at it until it comes up for examination so this will not be a problem, so the 7th week arrives and you demand immediate examination, in other words you push for grant instead of waiting 12 months. This is when the balloon goes up, and they insist on a demonstration, at this point you may be asked to sign the “official secrets act” by a government official, don’t do it, if you do you are screwed. This is only if they take it seriously and that is unlikely.

So the next stage is to invite them to you, tell them the machine is not transportable, they will probably insist you pay their expenses but thatÂ’s life.

There is nothing stopping you telling the press at this stage, once you have your filing receipt for the patent, you can shout as loud as you like, you donÂ’t need nor want to wait for grant, that will take time as everyone argues and blames each other for letting this through the filter.

The government will now get very twitchy, they canÂ’t shut you down as you are a national hero and you have a patent application thatÂ’s been accepted but you need to quickly put their minds at rest by saying you are only interested in building wheels for companies that supply the national grid, this way they still get there tax, the utility companies increase their profits and you are the good guy that saved the planet.

If you donÂ’t patent and you try and give to all, someone will suddenly file a patent saying that he had been working on it for years and wasnÂ’t ready to patent but you forced his hand. Now you have to prove that you did it first but he will have forged drawings authenticated by DERA, you are now screwed and the government has won.

Please donÂ’t be sceptical about the patent system, its there to help mankind, not hinder it, why shouldnÂ’t you make a profit out of the first twenty years and leave the world a legacy for the rest of time.

DonÂ’t fight it, understand it and make it work for you.

If you were an American you would really be screwed as they donÂ’t have a 6 week period, they have until grant and that can take three years.

You have to patent in the country where you live first, this is an international patent law.

Pete

[John Collins]

Thanks to all. I think that it's case of a combination approach. Broadcast widely asap, but not before a patent application has been filed.

Although I agree that the likely benefits may not be as competitive as current traditional energy suppliers, we cannot know for sure, neither can we accurately anticipate government reaction, so I would recommend jim-mich's suggestion - just in case.

Lost tax revenue might well be readily recovered and in a way that's good because it suggests that that aspect of the situation may not be a problem.

James I'm not sure I understand your point. If you broadcast the information after patent is filed, you're protected, if you get a decent patent lawyer. If you don't patent there is no problem.

Kas yes a licence is a definite possibility. You have raised another point however. Yes you can apply for a patent in this country (UK) but timing is fairly crucial in this case and how would that be possible for an international patent?

Winkle, I like your style but hopefully neither I, nor any of us will cause rate rises.

Steve I see something based on a wheel, but of a much more powerful construction; not necessarily enormous but perhaps cylindrical if you follow me. This might just generate enough power to attract attention.

Joel, I am using my imagination, but it's not running away with me. It has been on my mind for a long time and I wanted to see what others thought.

Michael, I agree but its fun to wonder.

John Collins

[Clarkie]

John,
You only need to file for the international phase before you push for grant, so after the first 6 weeks.

If you sit back and wait then it has to be done before 12 months is up.

The patent does not get published until 18 months after filing unless you accelerate grant.

Let me know when the time is right and I will help you through this crap.

If I get there first you can sit in on the process and see what flying shit really looks like.

Pete.

[Michael]

Edit. Might be premature for these comments.

[ken_behrendt]

I might as well add my two pence before this thread fizzles out...

First, I do not see Bessler inventions, fascinating as they are, of much practical value in the modern world. The only values, as far as I am concerned, of knowing their secrets is to a.) satisfy this generation of mobilists' burning curiosities as to how they worked, b.) to, hopefully, open the door to other, far more powerful, self-moving machines, and c.) help the re-discoverer establish his place in the history of science.

Second, do not be surprised, after spending multiple thousands of dollars of your local currency to obtain a patent, if you discover that industry sees little potential in "your" discovery. The reason, of course, will be its minute power output and bulk. However, some company, strictly as a gesture of "good will" of course, will probably offer you a few thousand for all rights to the invention...just in case, at some future time, they can somehow find a way to use it.

Third, whether you have a patent or not, you may just find your undeniably working device being lost in a sea of other such claimed devices (all bogus) and, sadly, over time either forgotten about or relegated to a future book on PM devices.

Fourth, if one is extremely lucky and does, indeed, have a working device, then, maybe, a handful of other inventors will verify this fact by successfully replicating the device. If that happens then the inventor might get some fame out of it and a few dollars if it is made into a novelty or toy of some type.


ken