Another gravity wheel?

[jim_mich]

Jim,

You have found the infamous WM2D curved polygon glitch.

Can this glitch be minimized by using less sides in the polygon?

BC

Number of sides makes no difference.

[Mac]

Since this thread is titled "Another gravity wheel?"...

Is it ok to ask if anyone has attempted to build something similar to the alledgedly working wheel shown at this link? It supposedly runs at 19 RPMs.

http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Gra ... index.html

Or should I start another thread? Am a bit fuzzy on board etiquette in some situations.

Mac

[Fletcher]

Hi Mac .. use the .. Advanced Search .. function & search 'Mitch Robinson' & also 'techstuff' or 'techstuf'.

If you can stand wading thru it you may glean what you are after. His wheel's alleged performance is contained in many previous threads discussions. A fraud by all accounts.

[Mac]

Hey Fletcher,

Thanks. I did try a forum search on "gravity wheel", but if it's a dud there's no need to pursue it anyway. I had found it several months ago and kinda figured if it was genuine the media would be all over it.

Mac

[ken_behrendt]

Fetcher wrote:

His wheel's alleged performance is contained in many previous threads discussions. A fraud by all accounts.

Yes, Techstuf's wheel did prove to be a hoax. However, on the positive side, I think it did help motivate some people to become mobilists who, otherwise, might not have. There's a silver lining in every cloud. The more individuals working on the solution to the Bessler mystery, the sooner we can expect a solution to be forthcoming.


ken

[Jon J Hutton]

Just thought I would post this. Interesting story that sounds very innocent and has some bessler qualities.

Jon

Perpetual Motion Toy - 12/14/97
The following file was posted on the KeelyNet BBS as MPTOY.ASC on 10/15/94, courtesy of Bruce Welsh.
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The following is from a personal experience that Bruce had which he wished to share with others who study such matters. I made up a crude GIF image at the time so you can get an idea of how it works, as far as I can tell from reading the file and talking with Bruce.

It is a fascinating story and if you choose to experiment with it, please share your experiences with all of us here at KeelyNet. - Thanks!
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Personal experience with overunity toy.

I grew up on a farm, and I had a great uncle that was a tinkerer. He lived on another farm about 10 miles away. He was the kind of person that would spend 4 days building something to save 15 minutes once a year.

Like I said he was a tinkerer. He also was quite an inventor, although he didn't think I knew it. He never tried to sell anything that he invented, his thing was doing it, not to make money, he just enjoyed building things.

When I was about 7 or 8 years old, we went over to visit with them. He was showing my grandfather the new toy that he had built for his boys, he had two sons that were about 10 and 12 and twin girls about 15 and twin boys about 18.

As best I can remember the toy was about two feet high and about one foot square. It consisted of a spiral ramp that I think made about 3 1/2 turns from the top to the bottom, at the bottom of the ramp was a paddle wheel.

This was connected through some gears to an elevator that went to the top. At the top was a hopper. In this hopper was placed about 10 marbles. There was a trip door on the hopper that would only let out one marble at a time. I think that it would release so that only one marble was going down the ramp at a time. Anyway, he tripped the gate and one marble rolled down the ramp, it took maybe 3 to 5 seconds to get to the bottom. It hit the paddlewheel and spun it causing the elevator to move up a little, this released another marble which repeated the process, this time the first marble was on the elevator and was moved up toward the hopper.

I think there was about 5 marbles on the elevator at a time. Anyway once he started the toy running, it continued to run. He said that you had to have all the marbles in the hopper to start, once the first few marbles had hit the paddle wheel, it spun continuously. We were at their house for about three or four hours, and I spent most of my time watching the toy run. One time I touched the paddle wheel and it stopped. My uncle came over and scolded me for touching it, he then moved all the marbles to the hopper and started it again. It was still running when we left.

It was years later before I realized what I had seen, and by then my uncle had died. I talked to his sons and they remembered the toy working the same as I did, but they didn't know what had happened to it, but said that my uncle had probably taken it apart and used the parts on other of his tinkering. They said that this was usually what he did, once the boys had tired of one of the toys he'd built for them, he would take it apart and build something else from it.

I don't know if my uncle knew that he had violated the "laws" of physics with his toy. I doubt it, he probably just wanted to make something that would run without help and so he built it.

I asked the boys if he had built other toys or machines that ran by themselves, and they didn't know of any. I questioned them about if there was a motor or anything on the toy, being I was young, and may not have been aware of it.

They assured me that there was nothing on it and the marbles made it run. They said that it had run for weeks at one time and then stopped, and my uncle had cleaned it and it again worked.

Sitting in an old farm house, I imagine that it got covered with dust and that increased the friction enough to drop below unity.

Anyway this experience convinced me that overunity machines can be built.
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Note: the spiral ramp is in effect a vortex and it appears that vortexes in some way add energy to things, they keep reappearing in many overunity ideas.

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A little background on me, I am a graduate Electronic Engineer, but I have an open mind, I have been into alternative energy for 20 years now and I look at things in this way,

First I am sure that overunity is possible, because I have seen it.
Second, I don't believe that the physical laws are all that unforgiving, that is I believe that every law has at least one exception, and I really believe that they all have several.

So if something doesn't obey a law, I don't get bent out of shape, I just think, well so it doesn't fit into the conventional theory.....Bruce Welsh

A poor picture is given here.

[LustInBlack]

God I like it!

It's the answer I was looking for .. Thanks!!!

Here is my variation ..

[Fletcher]

I think there are 2 curious things about this report.

The first is that all the marbles had to be in the hopper when the first ball was released. If it stopped, all marbles had to be transferred to the hopper again.

Why was this necessary unless the weight in the hopper plus the weight of the hopper itself was used in some way to leverage the initial starting conditions by either giving the first released marble extra acceleration or tensioning a spring in the system to act somewhere else ?

Secondly the elevator didn't turn continuously until a few balls had run down the ramp.

This suggests that he had a small flywheel to store momentum to raise the elevator. But why did it need a few balls b4 it ran continuously ?

Apparently the elevator didn't move up continuously & initially stopped between the first few marbles being released down the ramp. How does momentum get stored & accumulated if the flywheel stops periodically ?

Interesting to ponder !

[Jon J Hutton]

There are a few more things to ponder that are crucial here.

The length of the track is critical in keeping the flywheel going and not stopping. The flywheel would come close to stopping but couldn't stop completely after the first marble hit it otherwise it would not work at all. Each hit of the marble would increase the speed of the flywheel but the carrier would get heavier with each hit making counter torque. It would be an interesting build but you would really have to play allot with length of track, gear ratio, weights of the flywheel, number of marbles for adding inertia to the flywheel. I doubt he ( the designer) put a check on the chain to keep it from running backwards (because of friction) so I doubt that the flywheel ever stopped. If it stopped the weight of the marbles on the hoist would immediately cause it to run backwards. Sounds like it was a case of overunity and an inventor that had no idea what he had done.

LIB,

I like the variation..... I am not sure that pendulums can store energy long enough to push the cycle over like a flywheel would.

JJH

[Fletcher]

As best I can remember the toy was about two feet high and about one foot square. It consisted of a spiral ramp that I think made about 3 1/2 turns from the top to the bottom, at the bottom of the ramp was a paddle wheel.

This was connected through some gears to an elevator that went to the top. At the top was a hopper. In this hopper was placed about 10 marbles. There was a trip door on the hopper that would only let out one marble at a time. I think that it would release so that only one marble was going down the ramp at a time. Anyway, he tripped the gate and one marble rolled down the ramp, it took maybe 3 to 5 seconds to get to the bottom. It hit the paddlewheel and spun it causing the elevator to move up a little, this released another marble which repeated the process, this time the first marble was on the elevator and was moved up toward the hopper.

I think there was about 5 marbles on the elevator at a time. Anyway once he started the toy running, it continued to run. He said that you had to have all the marbles in the hopper to start, once the first few marbles had hit the paddle wheel, it spun continuously. We were at their house for about three or four hours, and I spent most of my time watching the toy run. One time I touched the paddle wheel and it stopped. My uncle came over and scolded me for touching it, he then moved all the marbles to the hopper and started it again. It was still running when we left.

My mistake. Should've read it more closely. The paddle wheel (the flywheel) was geared to the elevator. As you say it must have had a one-way rachet drive to stop it reversing.

The paddle wheel didn't turn continuously until a few marbles had hit it ???

The elevator went up in 'fits & starts'. As each marble went down the ramp & transferred its KE to the paddle wheel it then rolled into the elevator bucket. Each successive marble released had to add to the flywheel momentum to overcome the weight of the increasing numbers of marbles on the elevator.

The flywheel paddle would eventually run continuously (after a few balls) but the elevator moved spasmodically. That would imply to me that some sort of clutch was required i.e. not a direct drive.

Sorry, I know he says he was only young at the time but this story sounds just a bit too smooth for me. JMO.

[scott]

fwiw I don't buy it.

[ken_behrendt]

I'm somewhat confused by the presentation of this gadget and think I've previous read about it somewhere else.

Mainly, my question is: Are the balls carried back to the hopper above the spiral ramp by the wheel with paddles attached to it or are they carried up after falling off of the paddle wheel and rolling along that curved section at the bottom until they are picked up the by that triangle shaped part which I assume is the "elevator"? It would have been nice if the illustration could have been labeled.

Like Scott, I, too, am very dubious about this nostalgic story. The device, however it is supposed to work, reminds me of those self-pumping waterfalls I've seen woodcut prints of in old books. You know, the kind where the water falls from a higher elevation, hits a water wheel that drives a pump (usually an Archimedean screw), and is then lifted back from its final lower elevation to its higher, starting elevation. Such a device can, indeed, appear to be operating continuously for a while, but only so long as the amount of water dropping down is slightly greater than the amount that has to be lifted back up again.

I suspect that if this device actually existed and did run continuously during a brief demonstration, then the same conditions would have had to apply. That is, the amount of marbles dropping down the spiral ramp would have had to be slightly more than the amount being lifted back up, by whatever means, to the hopper above the ramp. If so, then this is one of the easiest "perpetual" motion devices to build...just don't expect it or a larger edition of it to be able to do any sort of serious external work.


ken

[rlortie]

reminds me of those self-pumping waterfalls I've seen woodcut prints of in old books. You know, the kind where the water falls from a higher elevation, hits a water wheel that drives a pump (usually an Archimedean screw), and is then lifted back from its final lower elevation to its higher, starting elevation. Such a device can, indeed, appear to be operating continuously for a while, but only so long as the amount of water dropping down is slightly greater than the amount that has to be lifted back up again.

They do not work for a while, but "as long as the water flows"
Ram pumps were a prime staple, used in the gold mining era of the mid 1800's to the early 1930's. Early models used two rams mounted on a rocking or "walking beam".


http://www.clemson.edu/irrig/Equip/ram.htm

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&o ... q=ram+pump

http://www.thefarm.org/charities/i4at/lib2/hydrpump.htm

[jim_mich]

I first read this story about 1998. I find it interesting. What if this "Great Uncle" actually build a toy that used the same principle as Bessler's wheel? I know from the simple description it would not seem to work. We all know that PM wheels are also not supposed to work. But according to eyewitness accounts Bessler's wheel seemed to work. And the childhood memory of Bruce Welsh seems to indicate his great uncle built a mobil and that it ran for a long period of time. If (or when) we figure out a way to make a working PM wheel maybe we will also see a way to make a PM mobil that uses marbles on a spiral ramp, a paddle wheel and an elevator.

[Bessler007]

The rolling balls develop more kinetic energy when dropped into a votex than if they were dropped vertically. Time is the reason.

☯