Gain force from their own swinging.

[Fletcher]

Sometimes Ralph, I can't understand a word you say ;)

I think WH (war hammer) is talking about, say, pivoted weights (pendulums) held horizontal, released & allowed to swing towards the vertical.

Just like a weight that has an exact counterpart on the opposite side of the wheel that is suddenly released & allowed to free fall, it in that moment of being free to accelerate in the gravity field does not apply its weight to the wheel structure. Consequentially, the wheel feels side heavy (on the side the weight is still attached) & this creates a turning moment (torque) around the central axle until the free falling weight connects again on its side of the wheel.

WH was not so much talking about counter torque but the temporary disappearance of the balancing torque imo.

This also is a 'hardy annual'. When a weight in the form of a pendulum is rigidly fixed to the wheel it applies its weight thru the pivot connection but the torque is calculated from the horizontal distance of the average mass to the axle.

When it is released & is able to freely rotate downwards the average mass position is constantly changing & to some degree CF's will also pull on the pivot connection (which ascends), depending where it is in relation to its orientation & velocity at that instant, IINM.

It's a complex relationship & maybe I didn't understand what WH was on about afterall, in which case disregard all the above ;)

[scott]

My point is, maybe it was this weightlessness that drove the wheel and not the other way around.

Absolutely. Of course the trick is in lifting the weights.

Time to come clean, Gene.

-Scott

[jim_mich]

When it is released & is able to freely rotate downwards the average mass position is constantly changing & to some degree CF's will also pull on the pivot connection (which ascends), depending where it is in relation to its orientation & velocity at that instant, IINM.

It's a complex relationship ...

It's quite complex. Most human minds have trouble imagining what will happen. Imagination is based on experience. Few people have experienced watching weights swing on rotating wheels. For one thing weights swing so fast on small wheels that it is near impossible to see what is happening. Large wheels turn much slower RPM's and are easier to see what happens. But how many of us have had an opportunity to watch weights swinging and falling on a large rotating wheel? Bessler constructed many wheels before he was able to understand what would happen and only then was he able to imagine something that worked when built.

[bluesgtr44]

Oh...I must have missed the 'War Hammer" part...I liked Gene better...easier to spell and shorter.


Steve

[Fletcher]

Yep, easier to say by far & harder to keep away than scaring a seagull off a beach ;) I'm not to fussed but I will defer to Scott on that call.

[KAS]

Jim-Mich is right about trying to get your head around what exactly happens to a weight as it swings in a rotating wheel.

I would like to tap into all your experiences and knowledge to answer the following:-

1. One thing that has always confused me is the effect that gravity has on a swinging weight between the 6 oclock and 9 oclock position of a clockwise rotating wheel.
If the wheel spun to a speed where CF would cause the weights to asume total exdended position, would'nt the CF in this quadrant be greater that the other quadrants due to the additional effect of the pull against gravity.

2. If so, could'nt this (additional) force be used to pull the weights on the opposite side closer to the axle?

Kas

[jim_mich]

... would'nt the CF in this quadrant be greater that the other quadrants due to the additional effect of the pull against gravity.

No, CF is CF and gravity is gravity. I think what you mean is total force.

Even when totally extended by CF the weight will still oscilate a little. In the 3rd quadrant (6 to 9 o'clock) the weight will sag down backward a little (on a CW rotating wheel). In the 4th quadrant (3 to 6 o'clock) it will sag down forward a little. Here we see how the lack of time keeps the weight swung outward because it doesn't have time to swing down between revolutions.

[KAS]

Ignore my last posting. I am still under the influence from a party last night.
I overlooked the fact that the a wheel turning in a clockwise direction and the effect I was trying to achieve would only work if the wheel was rotating anticlockwise. This counteracts any benefits.

Ah well! - I'm off to bed!!

Speak to you guys later.

[ken_behrendt]

Jim wrote:

This means that at some critical speed the weights will not be able to fully make their shift or move. The result would be that the wheel's top speed is restricted by the time that it takes to shift a weight one way during a first half revolution then shift back during the second half revolution. When a wheel turns faster there is no longer enough time for the weights to shift completely. With less shifting there will be less out of balance torque.

For a second there, I thought you were admitting that you thought that, past a certain terminal wheel rotation rate, the CF acting on the weights became so great that it then prevented the weights from shifting.

But, after rereading your description, it seems like you are just saying that the wheel, IF it could exceed its terminal velocity, would just be moving too fast for the weights to be adequately shifted by the CF so that an imbalance could be maintained.

My counter response to this is that, with greater wheel speed and consequently CF, would not one expect the shifting processes to also take place more quickly if they were, indeed, being driven by the CF? If so, then one might expect the rotational rate of the wheel to not play a role in preventing the shifting of the weights.


Well, like John, I am still bothered by the fact that Bessler's earlier one-directional wheels could accelerate from a standstill when, presumerably, no CF was present. This is not an easy observation to rationalize away, especially if those who tested the wheel were allowed to bring it to a standstill in various orientations to see if it could start from those orientations. They certainly would have been feeling the torque on the wheel's rim in those various possible starting orientations to see if they could detect any variation in it. They would also have been listening very carefully to any sounds that issued from the wheel as it was slowly turned by hand through various possible starting orientations. Surely, if such variations were noted, then some mention of them would have appeared in the Bessler literature.


ken

[Magnum]

Besslers two directional wheels could be turned slowly by hand and acted as if it where totally balanced. When given a good push it achieved full RPM speed in three rotations of the wheel. An overbalanced wheel would NOT act in this manor. Again I say it had to be a combination of CpF, CF, and overbalance. Once the wheel was set in motion the CF aka ghost force would swing the weights into position. At that point the weight imo would be lifted into the rim by mechanisms in the drum.
If someone knows where I can find a demo program that allows screen capture to be converted to animation I can show yall what Jim_M is talking about. The photos I uploaded earlier in this thread came from MSC.VisualNastran 4D. The pendulum acts as a sudden slow down and speed up force on the weights. It greatly increases their swing.

Ken T.

[jim_mich]

Ken T,
I make animated GIF's using an old obsolete program called 'Microsoft GIF Animator'. The program is not very big (about 1 mb total) which I could email. To use it you open windows's explorer then drag and drop mutiple gif's into the animator's little windows. Is this what you're looking for? To use it would reguire you to do manual screen captures using PrtScn then turn them into GIF's using a graphics program such as Paint. Then step your cad program and do the next screen capture. When finished you drag and drop the gif's from Windows Explorer into the Animator program which combines all the multiple gif's into a single animated gif file.

Or another way is I assume there are programs the will do a real time capture of your screen or of a window and then put them into some type of video file but I doubt these programs are free.

[Magnum]

Jim_mich

That will work. Shoot me an email.

Ken T.

[Techstuf]

Scott's statement to Gene asking him to 'reveal himself' seems laced with understanding.


Understanding of a kind that reckons toward, if not already has, the solution to this particular riddle.


Who would be smart enough to solve it, yet so naive as not to consider as many implications at the physical manifestation of such as may be reasonably weighed and balanced with one another?


May God's Hand be revealed in the matter, whichever Hand that may be....


http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/ ... 20of%20god


No King but King Jesus

[wheeldeal]

http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/277/untitledhj8.gif

teeter tot to upper pendulum
flipping even weight on end of teeter where force from flipping acrobats and swing is gains

teeter is restriction to 30 degree moving

[rlortie]

Jim_Mich, Magnum,

Or another way is I assume there are programs the will do a real time capture of your screen or of a window and then put them into some type of video file but I doubt these programs are free.

Now, as you know I am a day late and a dollar short on computer skills.

If I click on "all programs" then "accessories" then scroll down, I have a program called "windows movie maker" complete with sound track.

Will this not do what you seek?

Ralph