Were Besslers weights Hollow

[jimmyjj]

There seems to be some evidence suggesting that Besslers weights may have been hollow or something.
The evidence of course is scanty. For example why did he not let the ends of his weights be touched also the actual size of the weights which is a little vague seems to suggest that if the weights were solid lead that they would in fact weigh more than they did.
I am playing with this idea at the moment to do with what i call the "come back can"
A simple come back can can be made by getting a can of some sort piercing a hole in each end and then putting an elastic band through it with some matchsticks at each end to hold it in place a counterweight is then attached to one side of the elastic band which hangs in the centre of the can when you roll the can it winds up the elastic and the can then returns back to you.
I have been thinking of using something similar in a wheel design only perhaps instead of matchsticks on the ends a small cog could be attached.
The idea would be for the comeback can to operate as a sort of brake stopping the rolling weight in certain positions.
I did a simple test and it seems that a rolling weight on a level platform will roll anticlockwise on the top half of the wheel and clockwise on the bottom half.
Well its just a thought i am running out of ideas there is something about his weights - a better designed comeback can with a spring in it for example would in fact be able to come to a complete stop once fully wound. The motion of the wheel would perhaps wind and unwind the can.
Just thought i would share these thoughts in the hope that one of you may be having similar ideas.
Jimmy

[ken_behrendt]

Jimmy...

There were some excellent density/volume calculations done last year by Jim and Jonathan that seem to conclusively demonstrate that the cylindrical weights that Bessler allowed witnesses to the demonstration of his Merseberg wheel handle while wrapped in a hankerchief were only about the size and volume of a V-8 juice can. That is, they were only 4 to 5 inches in length and less than 2 inches in diameter. This is the dimensions the cylinders would have had to have had if they were solid and composed of lead.

Yes, I do believe that Bessler used lead weights whose central axes had been drilled or bored out and this is why he did not want the witnesses to touch the ends of the weights. These holes probably served two purposes. They allowed the weights to be quickly installed and removed by mounting them on a metal rod that ran through their centers and, quite possibly, the weights could roll a bit during the shifting processes taking place inside of the wheels.


Your "come back can" immediately reminded me of a little toy I used to make as a child. In those days, we did not have a lot of money for "store bought" toys and often had to make our own. In the long run, this was probably for the better because most of us kids went on to become quite handy when it came time to actually roll up our sleeves and build or repair something.

Attached is a sketch of a "tank" I used to make from an old wooden thread spool, rubber band, and birthday cake candle. I'm not sure where I got the idea for this. I might have seen it in a child's book of simple to construct projects. If so, then the original idea might go back to the 19th century.


ken

[scott]

Also see these threads from a few years ago:

The Uphill Battle...
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1677


The "comeback can"
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1639

[rounder]

i allways wanted to know about the weights i think what we know is that anything that was reported or heard by witnessess is the best thing we can all go on, since besslers writings can throw you for a loop all on there own. heres a good site to check out http://www.freedomtofascism.com/

[LustInBlack]

Think outside the wheel .

[gavin]

For a while i considered that the reason he wouldn't let anyone see the weights was that each weight was made of two metals, one magnetic and one not. Having spent a small fortune on rare earth magents i'm not so sure...

[jim_mich]

A weight will either be free rolling or it will be attached. If attached then there must be an attachment method. A hole in the weight is the simplest method. The attached weight may be fixed or rotatable. If fixed then any method may be used. If rotatable then the attachment must be some type of rotatable bearing. Let's look at these three possibilities...

[1] Free rolling.
When a weight rolls on wood it make a distinct noise that I think would have been noticed. Think of a bowling ball rolling down the ally. None mentioned hearing such a noise. I doubt that the weights rolled.

[2] Fixed attachment.
If the weights were fixed then the method of attachment would not be relevant. Bessler wouldn't have had any reason to conceal the ends, other than maybe to create confusion.

[3] Rotatable attachment.
If a weight was rotatable then the ends would have contained bearing sockets or short axle shafts. This I feel Bessler would have wanted to conceal.

So I feel that the most likely reason for Bessler concealing the ends of the weights was that they contained rotatable attachment bearings or axles. This would have been a big clue and Bessler chose to hide it.

Now why would the weights be rotatable? The reason has to do with rotational inertia. A weight swings differently when free to rotate compared to a fixed weight. The center of gyration of a rotatable weight is its center of gravity whereas the center of gyration of a fixed weight has a longer radial distance. Also a weight that is free to rotate will swing faster because it doesn't suck energy into rotating the weight. It also has less inertial energy. I think Bessler knew that these were critical design features and so he wanted the ends concealed.

There is one more very unlikely possibility. The rotation of the weight might be controlled in some way such as a one way ratchet/clutch or a latching mechanism to allow it to rotate at times and latch at other times. The ends of the weights might have shown evidence of this. I've investigated this and found that controlling the spin of the weights doesn't gain anything. I doubt that there was any latch on the ends of the weights.

A weight that is free to rotate gains no advantage by being hollow. A hollow fixed weight has a different radius of gyration than a solid weight. By itself this is not an advantage. But coupled with something else it might be important.

I feel the most likely reason for concealing the ends was that they contained bearings that allowed the weights to spin freely and Bessler didn't want this important information known. If they were hollow I feel it would have only been as part of the bearing.

[John Collins]

Good points Jim_Mich.

I still think that there is a strong possibility that Bessler simply wrapped the weights in a handkerchief to either convey a sense of mystery where there was none - or to protect the people handling the weights from a coating of grease (goose grease?).

Or it's possible that the weights had a piece of felt (or leather) covering on one part of the weight (at the point of impact or over the whole thing) to confuse those who tried to identify the mechanism from the sounds they heard. He admits that he did do that on early wheels and I had always assumed that the felt/leather would be on the impact receiving point on the wheel itself, but of course it could have been on the weights themselves.

John Collins

[jimmyjj]

Hi all
i must admit i have been unable to come up with a design, While i may have come up with a spring wound come back can it gets me nowhere . The idea was that on the last design which i posted in community buzz to change the actual levers to sloped platforms with gear teeth on them but i feel this would achieve only balance also.

I did have a new idea last night however of a self oscillating pendulum design which i will try to do a model of and post in the next week or so.
It basically consists of a heavy pendulum or pendulums being oscillated by lighter weights.

Jimmy

[ken_behrendt]

As far as the weights inside of Bessler's wheels were concerned, I came to the conclusion that they must have been mounted on yokes at the end of their levers as shown in the attachment below. This would have allowed them to be quickly removed and re-installed and also to be able to rotate about their core axes.


Oh, before I forget. I would like to take a moment to urge anybody who is just lurking on these public forums to consider joining the Discussion Board membership as soon as possible.

Why? So you can access the Community Buzz forum for members only on this Sunday, October 29th.

In the last two days, I have had a totally unexpected and very major breakthrough in my Bessler research. I believe that I have re-discovered the critical "principle" which, so far in the history of self-motive devices, has only allowed one man, Johann Bessler, to successfully build a working over balanced gravity wheel. I am now preparing a detailed sketch of a wheel design that utilizes this principle and I intend, God willing, to post it on my "...Updates" thread down in the Community Buzz forum this Sunday, October 29th. Anybody with a serious interest in having an advanced peek at what just could be the "general" solution to the mystery of Bessler's one-directional wheels will definitely be interested in this most unique design.

One of the consequences of the application of this principle is that one must use cylindrical weights and it helps if they can roll upon making contact with the surfaces they encounter.

Registering to become a board member here only takes a few minutes and it will not result in your Inbox being crammed with spam. If you do, then I predict that on this Sunday you will be very glad you did...



ken