trevie wrote:I think its selfish of scott to even bring this thread up
I don't understand this reasoning at all. Selfish is using the public forum as your own personal blog and posting as many words as the the next 4 top posters combined, with probably about half of those words being off-topic. And ignoring all requests to reign it in or use a blog.
Ken's words are now 23% of the total. Did you want me to wait until they reached 50% before I did something? 75%?
-Scott
Scott, selfish is saying you can't type long winded speeches, although Ken may waffle on about himself for about 50% of his postings, which may be very unnecessary as it its has no relation to the bessler wheel forum and so you have given dozen opportunities to express himself on a Blog rather than on a bessler forum, yet he still is defiant on doing so. Then why didn't you edit some of his postings to get to the point and nip it in the bud, then this way, he may of then changed his ways or could ban him from posting after so many strikes of non compliance. It may of been hard but he would of probably complied rather than insulting the man and pushing him away like we have done by creating this thread.
I do not Condemn that Ken should not stop discussing about himself altogether on the forum, but to limit to a couple of sentences then get to the point for his reason for posting on the forum in the first place. It just makes me wonder why Ken hangs out here so much in the first place. does his life just evolve around this forum and nothing else. maybe the guy is to long in the tooth to change his ways. I see you can create private forums rather than blocs, this was probably the alternative that ken was after. He could share his thoughts here away from the public and thus not to scare off any new comers.
trevie wrote:Does statistics really matter? Its only numbers.
No it's not only numbers. Those statistics reflect the average user's experience of the board. My goal is to make sure that experience is the best it can be for users on both sides of the Ken issue. That is why I created a place where he can post to his heart's content to an audience that is receptive and interested in what he has to say. If he would rather leave than use it then that is his choice, not mine.
I can understand your issues, creating alternative outlet is a great idea, thats why I have tried the blog for myself through choice, although the forum works on the same plane and kens choice is to use the forum rather than the blog. If you disagree and as this is your forum, you can stop it by setting the rules and if Ken does not comply then you can stop him from posting. You have hinted, but by not enforcing until now by means of this thread and decided to get some agreement from the other members, Something that is a voted decision which helps you on what to do. Something that I agree on as this forum belongs to everyone who is a member, No members = no forum. Although it hasn't come to this and Ken has decided to bail out by choice, which is his decision. From my perspective the rules didn't seem to be set out in the first place or I haven't come across them myself. Scott maybe you could refresh everyones memory of the rules of the forum, So I know not what to say or do in the future. If I don't like the terms then its my choice to leave or stay.
I found this snippet from one of Jonathan Questions, who I haven't seen on this forum in a long time and scott quotes.
"That is still an open question, Jonathan. I think we may start other forums at some point... maybe for specialized discussion (e.g. MT, etc.), or maybe for generalized rants!
I'd love everyone's feedback on this topic... I'm not sure what to do...
If I get some responses, I can split off a new topic from here!"
Maybe you should start a Ken "Rant" forum. Ken would be over the moon and he can have his special place to talk about his life rather than in the off topic forum. I think he deserves it considering he is hitting the 1M word mark and I could guess that not many forums can boast about that.
Ken did have his own two forums so to speak, his progress report and the "Off Topic".
If he would have kept his rambling confined to these two threads, there probably would not have been any problem.
But he showed no reticence to keep his repeatable opinions confined to those threads. It is as though he wished for the same retrospective conclusions to be part of every thread whether relevant or not.
I believe you would agree that his desire to prove himself with words, exceeds his perceptive skills to design a wheel.
I am surprised that Scott has decided to
make a topic on Ken as this is politically incorrect.
A leader should support his or her followers, but first
address the laws, issues, concerns, and how it will effect
the outcome.
Scott could have easily written to Ken and exchanged ideas and gone over some plans to start a restraining of words.
To place his name on a world view as if he forced his ideas and weather reports on people is not only bad politics, but shows bad taste.
I supported this forum beyond where I should have when Ralph was accusing me of wanting to know what he was doing. Where was Scott when Ralph accused me of seeking his research?
I did find my answers and I will take it to another place now.
I do believe that it is a mistake by Scott, just like all of us have made.
I hope Scott can see this, and maybe apologize to Ken, and then start a topic on rules he wants.
However If Ken broke rules, I do not think he did this intentionally.
I am slightly embarrassed by Scott posting such a topic.
Thank you Scott for finally tackling the Ken problem!
Scott is the most amiable, helpful and lenient forum administrator you could hope to meet, and provides an excellent and FREE service to us. Anyone who attacks him for the way he runs HIS forum should be ashamed of themselves. He acts unselfishly for the good of the community as a whole. He has given Ken every opportunity to amend his ways and even provided alternate facilities more suited to Ken's writing habits, but Ken refuses to change. Many members including myself have tried, on a number of occasions and as politely as possible, to challenge Ken's inconsiderate behaviour, but Ken refuses to hear what is being said and just carries on regardless. In the end Scott was the only one who could do anything about Ken. I just couldn't face visiting here any more, which was upsetting for me as I've been with besslerwheel.com since the beginning and it was always my favourite place on the internet. The following analogy is the only way I can think of to adequately express my feelings about my besslerwheel.com experience:
Imagine you find a swimming pool which is well run, has good facilities and friendly members. You visit everyday, and feeling at home you really enjoy being there. Word spreads about this great pool and new members join regularly. Then one day a new member joins, and everyone welcomes him to the pool. He comes across as a very polite, kind and interesting person. However, he suddenly climbs to the top of the highest diving board, crouches down and craps in the pool. Initially the other members try to ignore this behaviour as they are polite and considerate and don't want to hurt his feelings or cause a scene which would ultimately mean taking time away from their main purpose for being there. However, this member continues to visit everyday and each time he craps in the pool. Some members confront him about his behaviour but he just ignores them and carries on. They point out to him that there are excellent toilet facilities provided by the pool owners, but he tells them he prefers to do it in the pool. The pool starts to get a bad reputation and some new members are put off from joining, but others for some unknown reason can't wait to join a pool that you're allowed to crap in. The pool gradually fills up with crap, to the point that it's no longer possible to swim, and members are forced to sit by the side of the pool. The newer members have no idea how great the pool was before it got crapped in, but you do and you just can't bear it any longer and leave. You miss talking to the friends you made at the pool and you miss taking a swim in the pool, and so occasionally you pop back to see if anything has changed. You tentatively dip your toe in the water, but the turds floating past put you off again. Then one day the pool owner decides that enough is enough and wants to clean up his pool, and you see a glimmer of hope that things could go back to the way they used to be.
I hope from this that people realise why you can't just ignore Ken's posts; there's much more at stake than just inconvenience or annoyance, because by taking over the forum he becomes an unelected representative of the forum and Bessler Wheel research and unfortunately does great harm to our cause. It has always been difficult to get the rest of the scientific community to take Bessler Wheel research seriously and any serious researcher visiting this forum and reading Ken's posts will certainly be put off.
Anyway, I could go on, but I really don't enjoy having this type of personal discussion about someone, and my issues with Ken have already been made known in previous topics/posts. All I will say to Ken is that no one asked you to leave, but just to change your behaviour so that we can all enjoy the forum. I think the problem is you just can't do it can you? I've never understood why you don't have a blog on your own website where you can talk about anything you want to your hearts content. I personally would prefer a forum where nothing was posted for days if it meant that when something was finally posted it was worth reading.
Scott, as a gesture of thanks for trying to get this forum back on track I'll be posting some information from Ed's and my website about the Merseburg engraving/woodcut which should clear up the pendulum confusion once and for all.
I am surprised at many of you. Talking about Scott being selfish...he should do this...he should do that.......make a special place for Ken to do what he wants, etc.
Why should further burden be put on Scott, who continues to provide this service to us freely (except for donations.....have we donated lately?) Why is it selfish for someone to be asked to change their ways instead of everyone else caving in around them?
Time is of the essence! Should we be wasting it on useless tasks and weeding through B.S.?
I tried using the ignore feature and, at the time, it didn't work. I don't think that is a solution. Ken does contribute things of value and if he is ignored some threads will make even less sense.
Maybe Scott could have worded this Off-Topic thread a little differently (i.e. "What to do about long winded posters who insist on using up my resources."), but Ken would still have been discussed as a matter of fact.
I also don't wish to see Ken go, but he has made his own choice.
If anyone thinks what Scott asks of them is unreasonable or selfish be warned now.......JohannBessler.com will have more strict rules when opened to the public. We are striving to make it all business and no horsing around (unless you are harnessed in front).
Hey Stewart and Ed...looking forward to your new sight! I do hope, Stewart that you will take some of the valuable interpretation work you had done here at Besslerwheel.com and give it the credence I believe it deserves. That was one of the first and still most provacative threads I enjoyed on this site...I think some of your work in that area is just as valuable as any of the other interpretations that we have seen...just an opinion...
Steve
Finding the right solution...is usually a function of asking the right questions. -A. Einstein
I like your analogy but I don't think it's as accurate as it could be. You might look at the forum as a large plot of land. On that land people can build pools. Threads might be looked at as the pools.
Some of the pools are shallow and full of crap and others are deep with high dives. Anyone can build any sort of pool they want. People coming to the plot of land can decide for themselves which pool they want to swim in.
Ed pointed out
Time is of the essence! Should we be wasting it on useless tasks and weeding through B.S.?
Everyone makes their own decision how they spend their time. If you don't feel it's worth looking at Ken's thread that used to be a personal decision. So far Ken's thread had 37,004 views.
It's been pointed out that Ken didn't know what he was talking about and wasn't helpful in making a wheel that would work. Worse than that he misguided people that weren't 'discerning' enough to know what would work. Does anyone have a wheel that works? Who has posted these useful ideas? If someone started posting useful ideas people that were discerning probably would try to get them to stop posting buy cutting them into the action.
A few people wanted Ken to edit his posts. He did. I think this issue has found its best possible resolution.
Maybe Scott could have worded this Off-Topic thread a little differently (i.e. "What to do about long winded posters who insist on using up my resources.
This is my point.
Maybe this is the only way Ken understood what Scott wanted in his forum, but I think a topic on what is the rules for posting should of come first, and then Ken could freely read the topic. Maybe then he could of made a discission to temper his writing.
Thank you Jim, Ralph, John, Bill, Stewart, Ed, and all the others who've supported me. Thanks to you I know for sure that I did the right thing.
For those on the other side of the issue, I appreciate and respect your right to hold a different point of view. You are welcome to set up and run your own forum for Ken now.
I would just point out that Ken refused to post in a private forum or a blog precisely because it would self-select and limit his audience. He stated outright many times that he would continue to monopolize the main forum for this very reason. He also claimed he was actually doing us all a favor, since without his posts our brains might atrophy from lack of use. This was his response after at least a year that I and others had been trying to diplomatically get him to reign in his posting or start a blog.
How much more selfish can one get?
Wheeler wrote:I hope Scott can see this, and maybe apologize to Ken
You know, I'm probably going to piss some of you off, but so be it.
I support Scott in regards to the Ken issue.
I've been to a lot of other boards, and from what I've seen with the ways those are run, Scott was more than generous and patient with Ken about the way Ken was posting. AND polite. Bandwidth ain't cheap for a website, and gobbling it up at the rate Ken was doing was just plain abusive.
That Ken left on his own, well, that's Ken's decision. I hope the best for the guy, but there has to be a point where he gets to the point. I think he enjoyed the traveling more than ever reaching the destination, so to speak....
(For those needing their Ken story "fix", I offer this meagre substitute.... ;)
"It was in 1941, or maybe it was 1942, but anyway, I digress. We were fighting the Japanese in Burma, ghastly business that, and were halfway to Rangoon, when the lads and I came down with a severe case of irritable bowel parasites, on top of the pernicious malaria we had been enduring since we arrived in the theatre of operations. Having studied under a shaman in Madagascar, I immediately started searching the surrounding jungle for the ingredients for a cure I had been taught by this most wise, and old man, when we were captured by the Japanese. From there we were force marched to the Irrawady, what most people know as the river Kwai, and that's when I saw the bridge we would be bulding for the next 3 years. Continuing on to the main camp, I noticed that the...."
"....the mechanism is so simple that even a wheel may be too small to contain it...."
"Sometimes the harder you look the better it hides." - Dilbert's garbageman
Bandwidth ain't cheap for a website, and gobbling it up at the rate Ken was doing was just plain abusive.
Wow! I had no idea Ken was costing Scott all that money! Why that miserable sob!! Who would of guessed posting about 1500 words a day could be so expensive. Thanks for making that point, Mr. Tim. You're a credit to the persuit of truth. The world could use more folk like you.
btw your Ken fix ate up a lot of unnecessary bandwith. Who needs it?
All I can say is that I respect Ken's veiwpoint on most topics and admitidly he does go on a bit but this forum simply would't be the same without him.
Ken, If your out there, I dont always agree with all your views and opinions but debate is good for any discussion. A balanced veiw always humbles singlemindedness.
Scott, I think you are on the button with limiting the size of postings but I wish there was a way of getting the message across with losing members like Ken.
Kas
“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.�
Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947
Yes...it is I again and I've returned, at least provisionally, to express some thoughts.
I must confess that last Saturday morning I found the "tone" of this thread to be particularly troublesome, if not downright hostile. I, indeed, felt betrayed by the very Discussion Board which I had made a consistent effort to support with regular and, I always hoped, thought provoking posts since I joined it in early March of 2005. Rather than appreciating my exemplary effort for the sake of Bessler research, it seemed like I was being stigmatized and labeled as a "selfish" person who only wished to "monopolize", "abuse", and "hijack" the board for my own egotistical ends and did not care how much precious bandwidth, other user's download time, or tedious personal stories I inflicted in the process. And, of course, no mention was made of the hundreds of illustrations I prepared for my posts, the many models I'd envisioned and tested, or the amount of MY time that was involved in all of this.
So, from all of this, it is should be understandable why I decided to depart on the spot and promised never to return again. I'm sure that anybody else here would have had the same reaction.
However, feelings can change over the course of a few days. From my never ending offsite email communications, I was told that my exit had really produced a shock effect and that, mostly, it had apparently caused a great deal of depression in the members who had not yet had a chance to post during the buildup to my firey exit. As a result, I decided to break my self-imposed vow and re-visit the Discussion Board one last time to see what was being said about me behind my back.
To my surprise I realized that, contrary to my beliefs, most of the members here did not want me to leave and, indeed, actually began to say positive things about my work here!
Well, that was refreshing and, as a result, I have decided to attempt to try to get back to posting here on a regular basis again. Not to do so would seemingly only cause far more problems than if I was to suddenly give up on it all and return to my pre-board days of solitary research.
So, I guess this is the time and place to discuss some of the issues that have led to this thread's creation in the first place.
The two main problems seem to be my near million posted word count and my "style" of meandering into various personal issues such as my health and diet, weather, movie interests, etc.,
My near million words are being constantly cited as something that indicates that my bandwidth usage is excessive and indicates an "unhealthy" board about which something has to be done.
The reality of the situation, however, is that most of those words were accumulated during my first year here and that, in the last 6 months, my words per week have sharply declined. I used to post on my Community Buzz "...Updates" thread daily. Now, due to the increasing difficulty of my finding new designs to test, I am lucky if I can update that thread twice a week. Aside from that, admittedly, somewhat bloggish thread the only other thread that I, more or less, regularly update is the "Osama's Message..." thread in this Off Topic forum. Even my posts on that thread are way down due to the recent simmering off of events in the Middle East.
So, I find this bandwidth / words per week issue somewhat weak when it comes to using me as an example of what needs to be corrected on this board. In fact, and I hope I'm not sounding too egotistical about this, if I had not posted those almost million words, then, most likely, this board would not have the nature it had while I was posting them which, I believe, was one that could draw more new posting members than old posting members that it lost. Thus, I truly believe that a large share of the almost doubling in membership of this board (most of which, sadly, are only lurkers or not even visiting the board today) since I arrived is due to my efforts and the, admittedly, large number of words that I had posted. But, what about all the other members? Yes, they certainly played a very major role, but, often, their posts were in response to mine!
In fact, just the bandwidth used by posters responding to my departure from the site probably already exceeds what I am currently using in a month!
I suspect that this word usage issue will, in time, resolve itself automatically. My words per week will continue to decline while those used by the runnerups for first place will continue to increase IF they make a consistent effort to post. Eventually, perhaps 80% of the words posted will be by the top four posters and they will have roughly equal percentages.
Next is the issue of my "style" which, apparently, some members think is inappropriate.
Well, all I can say to this is that my style really only gets its fullest exercise on my "...Updates" thread. I've had this style practically since I started that thread over 100 pages ago and find that it does have its value.
My main postings on this board occur in my "...Updates" thread which, when one thinks about it, is a sort of sub-kingdom within the larger kingdom of the BW Discussion Board. It is in this subkingdom where my most creative thoughts with regard to the solving of the Bessler mystery are located and where reports of my ongoing research on Bessler's inventions takes place.
Actually, the continuance of that thread is completely dependent upon my unconscious creative mind's ability to find ever new possible mechanisms to explore that might be the general solution to the Bessler mystery. If my UCM stops functioning at optimum, then the rate of new posts on that thread dwindles. And if, God forbid, my UCM stops coming up with new ideas, then that will be the END of that thread!
Needless to say, I am very concerned about enhancing my creative abilities to keep my little subkingdom humming productively along. It helps to stimulate me to continue my quest and, as I learned by reading the posts on it since my departure, it seems to be critical to stimulating the few other active members here that are currently actually doing Bessler wheel research at any time. I think its loss to this board would do far more harm to this board than the tolerance of its existence...
In reviewing the posts there, I notice that the opening chatter on the posts seems always to subtly relate to this issue of maintaining my creative abilities. For example, health problems are a hinderance to creativity and I always complain about them and seek remedies. On the other hand, certain activities, like my hobby of collecting and viewing vintage horror / sci-fi movies, tend to enhance my creativity. The message that a reader might want to draw from the initial part of my posts there is that they might also want to consider what they can do about enhancing their own creativity. So, from this viewpoint, such an introduction is something that I feel can only benefit the Bessler researcher and not harm him.
I also think my "style" has enabled me to present myself as a three dimensional person to my fellow board members. Indeed, you each probably know more about me than I do about the lot of you put together. Thus, my style tends to lower the intimidation factor of my, bascially, technically oriented thread and can relax the reader a bit for the more technical discussions which follow. I think this is important for new members who might just be starting their quests. They can see my "...Updates" thread as a friendly place where they can relax and concentrate on what current research I am presenting.
If someone does not like my style, then that is fine with me. I am not forcing them to read any of it or even to visit my thread at all. But, while they are readily comdemning my style, they might want, for a moment, to give some consideration to my thoughts above and to the many members who do like my approach. Many of these, finally, spoke up once they realized that my "...Updates" thread was in danger of finally being closed down. To have my maximum creativity, I need to feel as comfortable as possible when I post. I do not want to have to worry about whether every word I type might take me over some arbitrary limit and, thereby, automatically trigger a reprimand. I do not want to have to worry whether my mentioning of a creativity stimulating or suppressing experience I had will be used as an excuse my another non-productive member to "justify" his leaving the board in mock disgust or using it to blame all of the board's imagined problems on. To have maximum creative power, I and anybody else for that matter, needs to feel free to speak his mind...just so long, of course, as it is done in a tasteful and polite manner.
So, there is stands, gentlemen. I am still willing to give it another try so as not disappoint my many fans here. However, aside from the issue of my word usage, I will not make any radical changes to the "...Updates" thread. The format that has evolved there seems to be working as evidenced by the fact that the thread is probably the most popular one on this site and, perhaps, on the entire internet! My philosophy is that "...if it ain't broke, then don't fix it".
And, as far as my word usage is concerned, I will probably shortly be within the arbitrary 2000 words per week limit that Scott thinks is critical to "leveling the playing field" and turning the BW Discussion Board into a "healthy" forum site (this post should be considered as an exception due to the nature of the present crisis that arose).
I, of course, do not really think that there is all that much wrong with the board at the present time with the exception that it could use about a dozen Ken-style "...Update" threads sprinkled throughout its varous forums.
Oh, and before I dismount from my electronic soapbox...what about the issue of my resistance to a Private Forum? Surely that indicates that I am a stubborn, non-conformist who is setting a bad example for all and, most likely, will be the cause of the downfall of the BW Discussion Board...that is, of course, if my excess bandwidth usage does not burn out Scott's server's hard drive first!
I know from being here awhile that these forums, once started, tend to fall into disuse and then are eventually abandoned. Perhaps if they were more prominently displayed on the Forum Index page, then I would have a more favorable opinion of them. Since they were started, I think I've only visited one, found nothing of interest, and did not return.
I like having my "...Updates" thread where it is because its location there is well known to the membership and it can always (as long as my supply of creative energy holds up) be a haven on the Community Buzz forum for members to visit when there nothing else interesting going on there.
So, now that that is out of the way, I shall make a quick post on my "...Updates" thread to alert its devotees that I've decided to give it one more try over there. I'm sure that they will be overjoyed by the annoucement.
Finally, before I sound too dogmatic and unyielding, let me say that Scott is, ultimately, the decider of what goes and stays on this board since it is, afterall, HIS board. For the sake of my many fans and Bessler research, in general, I will endeavor to continue here as long as it is bearable for me and does not cramp my "style" too much. If he decides that I must go, then fine, I will and he can then he responsible for whatever the aftermath of losing the most popular thread on his board (and perhaps the internet) would be, and of course, I would then definitely not be coming back again. However, I do NOT intend on changing my basic approach to researching the Bessler mystery just so as to satisfy the whim of every self-appointed critic that comes down the pike. When it comes to making radical changes, I've found that it's best to let my own unconscious creative mind decide what to do and when. I want to keep it happy and productive because, if I do, it just might reward me by leading me to the secret of Bessler wheels and...it that happens...we'll all sleep a bit more soundly...
ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:
