Did Bessler use fire flame or heat to power his wheel

[Fletcher]

I may be labouring this but further discussion might be useful.

Let's use Bessler's bi-directional wheels as the example because we know they were stationary until given a slight push. [I still think the one-directional wheels also needed a push to get started but were tied down for more impressive startup that also didn't give anything away unecessarily.]

If he used an open system that used environmental forces available or even external 'fuels' introduced to the wheel, then it is easy to see how the wheel could build up momentum, as long as you keep providing the fuel or exploiting the gradient to do work. Its just an engine & an unbalanced secondary system is kind of redundant because you could just use a piston/bellows & crank to turn a balanced flywheel.

The point is that if you think that he did use gravity then his prime mover must also be subject to the same laws of physics.

What we can tell is that the bi-directional wheels started from a stationary position (balanced/keeled) then once moving could never attain that balance again (unless forcibly stopped - robbed of momentum). This means that there was an excess of momentum each rotation. Momentum is normally conserved as we all know to well, but in this case there was excess left over each cycle.

In order for a structure or framework (associated with the prime mover) to cause the wheel to never again reach balance, or the wheel to have excess momentum, it is required to be interactive with a second system, as KAS has deduced.

One system must have an eccentric path so that the two systems can converge & interact imo. [MT13 is a good example in generic terms but as Bessler says it would be good if someone were to lift the weights at the top (i.e. prime mover). MT18 could also use the same assistance.]

So there must be two systems because otherwise it could not be stationary & balanced when stopped & then become unbalanced thereafter, once given a shove. Even if there are dual systems in the bi-directional wheels they still start in balance. The jacob's ladder on the toy page suggests two systems, each falling over the other.

[gavin]

this is a very good topic. the concept of a prime mover is a bit of a wake up call and for me just highlights the fact that we need to come up with something really well thought out. randomly thinking of new wheel configurations isn't going to do it. I've spent the last year doing that, i'm guessing many newbies have done same and dare i say it JB himself did to some extent initially.

i certainly don't rule out the fact that Bessler cheated or mis-lead in some way and if we could work out how, then great. assuming he didn't however, the prime mover needs to be an external energy source as proposed by JimmJJ, some undiscovered energy source (dark energy etc.) or some clever manipulation of the laws of gravity.

from Johns books i don't really get the feeling a strange force was involved. external source is possible as is manipulation of the behaviour of gravity.

the laws of gravity are decsribed mathematically and i'd be amazed if any of the governing equations turned out to be incorrect. i've thought for a while that our best shot is to mathematically describe any force related to gravity and look for instances of non-linearity, interactions, conflicts etc.

i'm a huge proponent of getting a computer to do the work for me and tried to simulate wheel designs - impossible! but changing the approach from randomly coming up with wheels, to analysing known laws could be possible.

if we could get a full library of equations we may be able to get some usefull algorithms knocked up.

sees like a good wiki addition at least...

[jim_mich]

I suspect that WM2D uses conservation of energy as a rule to help it solve for movement. I suspect that it might not be able to accurately model a Bessler type wheel that gains energy. I suspect this is what causes some models to explode. I have no proof. But I do know that WM2D says that it explodes because it cannot resolve all the forces.

I feel the non-linear formula for Bessler's solution is...
(V-X)^2+(V+X)^2 is always greater than (V-0)^2+(V+0)^2
where...
V = rotational velocity
X = extra velocity

Explanation: CF is based on the square of velocity. When one weight advances while another one retards around a rotating wheel the combined CF of the two weights is greater than when both weights just ride the wheel. Advancing and retarding the weights can be energy conservative. Energy spent making the weights move can be recovered else we wouldn't have conservation of energy. The unbalanced CF can then be used to unbalance the weights which can then turn the wheel.

Turning the wheel produces the CF which advances & retards the weights which unbalances the CF which moves the weights which unbalances the weights which turns the wheel which produces the CF which retards & advances the weights which unbalances the CF which moves the weights which unbalances the weights which turns the wheel... Round and round we go.

The holidays got me sidetracked. Hopefully I can build my test wheel soon.

[jimmyjj]

I am still convinvced Bessler had fire in his wheel. My ENTER key isnt working so please forgive my format LIB . Is it not possible that Bessler invented a version of a stirling engine 100 years before Stirling did. A Stirling engine or most of the earlier ones were not self starting perhaps this is why in his main wheel drawings the pendulums are always primed to give the wheel an initial push upon starting. i ask myself if Bessler found a way around Carnots law. By using multiple stirling engines- it seems that some of todays stirling engines are over 80% efficient specifically the free piston stirling engines. I wonder if one had two stirling engines balanced opposite within a wheel whether the position of the displacer and a correctly timed arrangement could increase the efficiency . Therefore as well as having the energy from each stirling engine one could also use the energy of the positioned displacers to also add to the engines efficiency. I have started building a few primitive stirling engines and believe that it would have been within Besslers means to construct something of this nature. Stirling engines seem to have a low power output obviously not enough to pump the water of Count Carls Cascade. Count Carl maintained his interest in fire driven engines but i feel Besslers engine would have been more efficient. all the best Jimmy. Damn i think i need a new computer.....................

[jim_mich]

My ENTER key isnt working.

I think you might need just a new keyboard. Or take your keyboard apart and clean it.

You can hold down the alt key and type the ascii value for the key you want. To emulate the 'Enter' key, press and hold the alt key while you type 013 then let up the alt key.

Three hundred years ago there were limited ways to produce heat. The most common was to burn something. If Bessler's wheels were burning something I'm quite sure it would have been noticed. Chemical reactions producing heat (such as iron, sawdust and salt) were known but they would have been difficult if not impossible to control within a constantly rotating wheel. Then you still need a working heat engine.

If Bessler used fire to drive his wheels then it would make him a liar when he said his wheels gained their energy from swinging weights.

[ovyyus]

If Bessler used fire to drive his wheels then it would make him a liar when he said his wheels gained their energy from swinging weights.

I agree, it's very hard to accept that Bessler cheated by hiding a fire in his wheel. But I don't think you should necessarily dismiss the possibility that Bessler might have discovered and cleverly applied a novel thermodynamic effect which might somehow allow an energy gain in his moving weights - perhaps as a result of their specific shape and/or motion. A 'mysterious' thermodynamic energy gain might look exactly like a genuine PM. Jim, I wonder if some unknown thermodynamic 'trick' is more or less an improbable proposition than some unknown gravity 'trick'?

IMO, it's an approach to the Bessler puzzle which has been largely overlooked, perhaps seen as somewhat heretical or faithless or just too disappointing to warrant much interest. But the area might hold an answer to Bessler's long held secret - perhaps even an answer that is equally as interesting as gravity PM. Well, perhaps not quite, but almost :)

[jimmyjj]

Hi thanks Jim my computer is a laptop i think i might buy a usb keyboard for it because its not just my enter key my backspace key and inverted commas are also out. i wonder to keep a flame burning it would probably have to be on gimbals like the chinese used to use to keep their candles straight while walking Bessler does mention as Bill has quoted that he used alcohol ithink this may have been an odourless smokeless flame perhaps suitable for the purpose, if you remember Bessler also put a barrier around his wheel to keep people away. Perhaps also he made his wheels bigger to hide the heat as it would be very difficult to feel the heat emanating from the top of his larger wheels it would have been out of reach. i cannot recall any witness accounts of anyone climbing to the top of his wheel to feel for any heat source. Perhaps if he used the heat efficiently it may not be so noticeable. i remember reading that Bessler did not exhibit his wheels on Sundays perhaps this was refueling time. I suppose i have given up my quest of powering a wheel from gravity alone, however i still want a wheel! so hence i look to fire to aid me in my quest Bessler seems to suggest that he has given all the details in part one of apologia and i believe a subtle suggestion of this is when he mentions the roasting spit he mentions this spit twice the energy is there to power the spit there is no need for hand or dog turning...... Bessler also suggests that his wheels will work just as well in freezing cold conditions i think that the temperature differentials in these conditions would rule out extracting energy from ambient heat as there would not be enough thats just my opinion. His Mt drawings from 63 to 76 seem like they may have free moving pistons , displacers and possibly membranes or bladders which albeit may or may not be indicative of a stirling type engine arrangement. I read somewhere that with a multiple free piston arrangement a stirling engine reached near unity power output and this was a fixed engine wheras i feel Besslers pair/s of engines were rotating. as he says everything goes around together hence i feel that gravity was indeed a force powering besslers wheel but not the only one i feel that the one word he says that would give his secret away is fire. Well i will let you know if i discover anything i cant say that i am a good stirling engine builder but i am sure someone is and perhaps was..............Jimmy

[bluesgtr44]

Hmmm...what happens when water mixes with sulfuric acid?


Steve

[Gregory]

Or Sodium with water...?

But it think this is not the case.

Jimmyjj, remember Bessler played with his head on his neck! If they found that he lied in case the mechanism would revealed, then his head could be chopped off as he offered.

I doubt he built a stirling-type engine. Those engines need great preciseness and good materials to be effective.

[Mikhail]

Bessler - Rod -Wheel

http://www.evert.de/eft416e.htm

[winkle]

Perpetual disappointment

all that needs to be done to find the answer is to make all those hammers hang out at the top and lay in at the bottom

now how hard is that

come on folks get busy and find that answer

[wheelmaster]

Out of all the eye witness accounts no one smelled smoke.

WM