MT138..Hammers Guys as Siamese Twins, same motions with hammers

[wikiwheel]

In wm model simulation saw thet hammers guys hammers went the same places down and up as just a cross figure with weights on cross bar shape

So, make the cross say 10 inch tall stick, axel at down bottom end. Then the cross bar stick at upper top fixed to thes stick with a weight at ends of cross stick.

Look at them. The weight on the cross stick member go same places as if two hammer guys anyway, so why go to trouble of making complix rectangle hammers guy thing when thes combinaten is same things??

Also no way how place on wheel, either way simple or complix center of gravity of both cross stick weights still falls slightly when 10 inch stall stick falls over.

No different between two ways, just one simple to experiment with.

Bessler would had seen this simple thing way, but told us to do complex ways.

I think hammers guys are just a deversion thinking...anyway



Mik

[Fletcher]

I think the hammer men parallelograms are simply showing the use of 'squares' in conjunction with leverage.

Squares are an integral part of organ building & feature in the forefront of the workshop page of the DT frontispiece picture.

[wheelrite]

does anyone know if the hammer toys have ridgid/fixed hammer connections to the 'man', or are hinged at the 'man' to flick down and strike the anvil as the 'man' himself stops short? Has anyone seen a real toy to say?
Regards
Jon

[Stewart]

Hi wheelrite

Here is a good link to a huge German collection of toys both old and new:

http://213.179.68.166/nb/index1.html

type the word "Schmied" into the bottom textbox marked "Freier Text" and then click on the "Suchen" button. This will show you some examples of the hammer-men or blacksmiths. The hammers are normally fixed. Also search on the word "Maisstampfer" and you'll see another two similar toys which are beating corn.

Stewart

[Jeff]

Have you noticed the parallelogram of hammer toy C is shorter than toy D, and they seem to correspond with the lengths of the segments of the scissors - storks bill - toy, the longer portion being at the bottom and the shorter being upward? Also the slope of the vertical part of the parallelograms seem to match the slope of the segments of the storks bill.

I think the round handles on C might indicate an inward push on the handles, while the long handles on D indicate a pull.

Jeff

[wikiwheel]

Thank you guys for your comments. I enjoy participating in anything American.
I have someone who I tell what i need to say and then they write it out in good English for me and maybe we can make better sense than befores.

One correction. The weights are not exactly travelling the same when fastened to a cross compared with the mt138 drawing. A cross like the pendulum on the mersburg drawing but with no weight on the bottom end.

Actually the weights are in a resting position after they fall, opposite from mT138.

But still there is the sideways shift and the slight drop in the pair of weights combined center of gravity. I was hoping to see that one weight would rise just as far as the other one fell and still tap force from the sideways shift.

Either way, cross or mt138, the weight that falls goes more directly down than the other weight goes up (as across the top of a circle) its ascent is at a lesser rate. Strangely still, I put 8 of these on a wheel and they don't take anything away from the rotation of the wheel, but "messing with one" like to extract force, causes heaviness at the wheel's bottom.

Back to square one.


Mik

[wheelrite]

the spacing between horizontal parts of the parallelogram toys is much greater than any of the real toys i've seen at the museum page, they have just enough space to operate and have legs on the figures, increasing the vertical length would make the legs look way too long and seems to have been avoided. This extra length WOULD be necessary if you were trying to match the storks bill segment lengths, OR if you wanted the handles to line up with the ladder toy hinge point and midway point, OR if you wanted to 'make room' for the detail on the base of the anvils. There seems no good 'obvious' reason for the way they are depicted so maybe there is a less obvious reason required to explain it (a clue).
Only one real toy I have seen from the period has any handle detail at all and that is 'sword' type design, I think indicating push or thrust inward (not pull) as a visual clue to the young on its operation maybe, or just a play on the sword thrust angle.
Back to anvils, again only one real period toy I have seen has any base anvil detail and that is just a cylinder anvil top to bottom, Besslers top illustration has a base like a group of cylinder weights placed together? and the lower one is more obscure, maybe the bottom of a 6 pointed star? they don't look like 'cauldron' type legs as the centre point is lower and would unbalance it.
The top of the storks bill ends in an solid arrow, indicating? lift?, in reality if there were not a joint in the arrow head itself this toy would not move at all......
so there you have it, to get from Falling on the right (A/B) to Lifting on the left (E) you have to connect or go through the parallelogram(s) (C/D) utilizing the hammers or weights, but where are the springs? ...sigh.
Finally, the ladder toy is shown twice, more significantly in two different planes. Does this indicate anything? maybe a turning or transforming of forces?( like the spinning top) or is it that its operation in one plane (flap falling to the side) will change cog/ob, and operation in the other (flap falling toward/away) will not?
And the actual drawing detail of the ladder is weird, almost not showing the solid 'flap' pieces but rather the connecting strips that make up the toy(its hinges if you like), odd. Even the pivot points are shown like little balls or bobbles (weights?) and are not in the centre of the toy but alternating on each side, and only 'bobbles' shown on one side of the A view, shouldn't it be both sides? they almost look like weights on short levers.
just more to chew over......may be productive.
regards
Jon

[wheelrite]

PS thanks for the toy link Stuart.
Regards
Jon

[wheelrite]

PPS
the anvil in C is drawn behind the horizontal stick, in D it is in front or straddling the stick.
Jon

[jim_mich]

Jacob's ladder toys usually use ribbon to inter-connect the individual blocks. Maybe the Jacob's ladder toy is shown as a hint that something inside the wheel must be inter-connected. Ribbon makes a good material to inter-connect things as it can be as strong but more flexible than many ropes. The other night I observed a tent in a movie that had woven cloth strips in place of tie down ropes.

I see much meaning in the hammer men toys as the hammers represent the metal weights. But the scissor jacks and the Jacob's ladder seem to deal more with inter-connections. The hammer men are the center of attention in the middle of the page. They are surrounded by toys that have criss-cross inter-connections. This seems to relate to the twisting clothing. Twist and criss-cross are similar concepts. All the toys are action toys.

[Flywheel]

Can someone tell me how jakobs ladders works? I don't have one, and can someone tell me how to build one? thanks!

[MrTim]

http://www.mathematische-basteleien.de/jacob.htm

and

http://www.woodcraftarts.com/jacob.htm

[rlortie]

Fletcher,

Your above red emphasis on the hammer toy, reminds me of a post I submitted some time ago.

That being, if you look at your tracing you will note that the two men are holding their hammers at different angles. One is acute and the other looks to be at a true 90 degrees.

Also note that this angle is reversed in the lower depiction. We have a right-left and left-right.

Ralph

[Fletcher]

Yes, I noticed it also but I put it down to artistic licence when the hammer toys were drawn [on purpose]. Imo it was not intended to be artistically accurate as some of the storksbills aren't, in the earlier woodcuts in MT [which Bessler specifically mentions] so there's a commonality there.

The other pointer is as already mentioned a day or two ago, that the hammer men parallelograms dimensions seem to match the storksbill dimensions on the toy page rather closely, so storksbills are used in conjunction with the hammer toys ? I bet everybody's looked under that particular stone at some time or another !

[Fletcher]

.. if you look at your tracing you will note that the two men are holding their hammers at different angles. One is acute and the other looks to be at a true 90 degrees. Also note that this angle is reversed in the lower depiction.

We have a right-left and left-right.

Sorry Ralph .. I didn't specificially address the issue of the right-left & left-right you mentioned. Yes, that could be significant & certainly seems to be on purpose. By squinting the eyes I can imagine a pendulum action there perhaps ?