MT138..Hammers Guys as Siamese Twins, same motions with hammers

[rlortie]

Fletcher,

Yes and also due to this irregular angle it allows the one holding the hammer higher a longer distance of travel. The guy in the top right is really choking up on the hammer handle. Reminds me of a couple of old smithy's, one would hold a hammer on a specific spot and the other would strike his hammer, not the work.

Also the letter C-C and D-D seem aimed at the hammer heads and not the toys in general. Wonder what this thing would do if it were placed above a wheel axle and symmetrically pin the very bottom of the handles in line with the axis. Then turn the wheel 180 and install another in the same fashion.

Your weights would be in pairs, they are at right angles to the axis one is in while the other is out. They go on changing places. And they certainly have the mentioned connectivity.

EDIT: I forgot, CF would definitely play a roll in such an arrangment.

Ralph

[wikiwheel]

Ralph,

If a hammer is held higher than the other, the highest hammer will be the one to continue higher while the lowere one will be the one to fall.

Tried already putting them as you say on a wheel.

No go.

Mik

[rlortie]

Wiki,

I agree that the higher hammer has more amplitude and farther to travel gaining in angular momentum. But we must remember that it is limited to the same amount of movement as the shorter partner.

What I propose is not the answer, but food for thought.

Lets say the guy with the longer or increase angle does the pulling down not only by mass but with CF. All the other guy does is balance him as he ascends. We only have one power down stroke per revolution and inertia resets a balanced wheel.

One would have to play with both leverage and mass until a balanced state is obtained with the pair resting at nine to three. knowing full well that once the device shifted it would become heavy on the down side with the extended hammer increasing velocity thus multiplying CF that is not pulling against the axis.

Also take note that the hammer toy and its parallel bars operate just like the scissor toy, opening and closing twice per cycle.

Ralph

[rlortie]

Wiki,

Now you did it! you have me on an inspirational roll over this darn hammer toy.

I just took another look for the umpteenth time and had another thought. What if the anvil is actually the axle. The guy with his hammer down is actually resting it on the axle, and no weight is being lifted once shifted. Remember this is only a toy, so look at it as levers performing a mechanical action.

If I were to construct such a design, I would give them longer handles so the handle would sit on the anvil with the hammer head hanging over. The one raising would have even more amplitude.

Ralph

[wikiwheel]

Ralph!!

""If I were to construct such a design, I would give them longer handles so the handle would sit on the anvil with the hammer head hanging over. The one raising would have even more amplitude. "

Ralph

So happy someone so respected is looking at my ideas and putting some out too!!

I have tried your above idea abefore, with the workings model program and it was also a no go. Have tried about 34 different things that way with the hammer swingeing.

I think that if you get workings model it will help you alot and save some time from buildings you do and help to leave us to the promised land.

Mik

[wikiwheel]

Sorry ralph I forgot to explain why it would not work.

It seems that no madder what, the two weights center of gravity falls/ moves down when these things are turned over or upside down.

so whatevir they are connected to is always heavier at the bottom.

Mik

[rlortie]

Mik,

I have never looked at the depiciton of the toy as a mechanism to turn a wheel but rather a connecting device to initiate or excite the driving mechanism.

Upside down, yes they will hang in a balance at what ever angle that might be, I would think tilted down for the side with the up or outward handle.

My point is that I think by mounting two of these devices parallel to each other on opposing side of the axle would have some different effect. The one on top would have the Cog thrown to the right for clockwise motion. In the mean time the lower is acting as a counter balance for the top one. Cf would pull the longer hammer out shifting the COG accordingly. The lower becomes dead weight full of inertia.

Ralph

[wikiwheel]

thanks Ralph

I think you should get the workings model program. I have tried the hammers guys at all angles to the wheels and each other. Always heavy at the bottom. Pairs of them do not
'cancel" each other out, they are additive, the more the heavier at the down side.

Working mods is easy to use program. I made hammers guys and a hammer guy and girl things, copy and paste them all overs the places.

Will try now to make something go with the scissors and these wrecktangles with weights.

LOTS OF FUNS, not boreding or discrouged yet!

Mik

[jim_mich]

There is a dirty little secret about WM2D that might cause it to show a working wheel as being a not working! Working models (and other modeling programs also) use "solver" type programing. At each step this solver programing keeps ajusting the movement of the objects using standard Newtonian physics until all the forces balance out. When all the forces balance out then you have conservation of energy. If you have conservation of energy then you have a wheel that cannot put out excess energy. If the wheel cannot put out excess energy then it's a not a PM wheel.

So how do you tell if the program is having trouble with excess energy? Simple! The model explodes when it cannot handle the calculations. If your model is one that is gaining energy then this would screw up the conservation of energy calculation and the program cannot handle it.

I have no way to prove this right or wrong, but I suspect that I'm right. WM2D does just fine on many models. It only seems to have trouble when you have weights swinging around on a rotating wheel. It then goes fruit loopy. The more complex the swinging the quicker WM2D explodes. There is something about weights swinging on a rotating wheel that drives WM2D wild. I think it has something to do with my Jim_Mich principle formula.

The Jim_Mich principle formula is...
(V - X)^2 + (V + X)^2 > (V - 0)^2 + (V + 0)^2
where V = Velocity and X = eXtra velocity (not zero) of weights traveling in a circle.

[mickegg]

Now you tell me........

One of the first posts I made to this forum was to inquire if wm2d
could be relied upon......

There is a dirty little secret about WM2D that might cause it to show a working wheel as being a not working!

Dammit!....Now I will have to go back and try all those designs again.<grin>

Regards

Mick

[wheelrite]

Look carefully (magnify a little) the top 'rail' only on each hammer toy is serrated or notched, have not seen this in any real toy in my research, the letter C is too big and touches the horizontal rails, in fact it seems it may be retouched or something at the top of the C were it fits in a notch. Would an impact cause the anvil to fly up and move across a notch? would the next impact bounce it back a notch? Is that why the anvils are shown mounted differently on the top rails? The letter C between the rails is allmost like a spring, or end on view of a part cylinder?
Moving on :) if you turn the drg. 90 degrees right (is that what the 'twisted' men signify?) I note the hammer toys would work as parallelograms in this plane too, maybe better if they were 'squarer' and the men just handles. And the jacobs ladder toy looks like a 'scale' or 'count' , relating to drawings nos. maybe? so is it 5 and 50? or turning the drawing 180 degress 50 and 95? I dunno...
just some more thoughts.
Regards
Jon

[LustInBlack]

hehe, the Jim Mich formula .. ;]


Let's think of a way to "bypass" wm2d explosions ..

If you were to attach a load to your wheel that would eventually cancel out any supplement power, than your model would not explode .

So, when your models explode, try putting some load on it .. no !?


btw, one of the biggest exploding model I have is my "famous" or not so famous immersion principle.. ;]

Many swinging weights on a wheel .. There is a connection . .